Just got my fourth anniversary badge.
Haven't released a game since 2012.
Table problems killed all my larger projects I've been working on since 2012.
@Hymloe said:
Just got my fourth anniversary badge.
Haven't released a game since 2012.
Table problems killed all my larger projects I've been working on since 2012.
I know (from lots of your forum posts) that you have had issues with your game(s) and tables. I have published and built more than 40 games within the last 12 months. Only 1 game has had an issue with tables. This game had 2 separate issues and was easily fixed. One was using names to address names and columns rather than numerical values and the other was updating a Table Cell Value with its own value which I know you are aware of. Lots of my games use tables and I encourage the use of them but I don't see the same issues you find with yours. Whislt I know of issues of tables and HTML (via @Armelline ), I don't see any other issues using tables for anything. I have seen @Armelline and @Hopscotch try to help you too but I really think you have ANOTHER UNDERLYING ISSUE with your game. I Know its easy to blame GS for an issue but 90% of the time it is down to logic. I know this first hand, we all make mistakes (including GS). Maybe its time to start this game from scratch and build it again (testing along the way). At least this way you can see where it went wrong and really find the problem. Waiting for GS to fix this for you is a long shot right now. I don't know if they know if it is a bug or not. Hell we all don't know if its a bug of not. Rebuilding your game will only solve your issue right now (in my opinion). Which you can take or dismiss, Im just offering advice here.
It now takes about 90 seconds, instead of 1 or 2 seconds.
That is not even involving any game code or logic.
I know other people claim to have big tables that import fine.
But why has my table suddenly got some problem with it, even though it's the same table as the one that imported in a second or two in a previous version of GS?
@Hymloe there is/was a bug with importing large tables. It might be fixed but slowed down the import. Maybe that's related. I'm curious why the import time really matters though, isn't it a one and done type thing? Are you constantly importing or copying tables during gameplay?
Hymloe there is/was a bug with importing large tables. It might be fixed but slowed down the import. Maybe that's related. I'm curious why the import time really matters though, isn't it a one and done type thing? Are you constantly importing or copying tables during gameplay?
Whenever I save and load the player's progress, I need to Copy a bunch of tables, recording things like which tiles the player has revealed, etc. It now takes minutes on end, instead of being a matter of seconds. That's the bit where, if it doesn't get fixed, it's not worth releasing the game at all, and so it's "game over" unless that gets fixed at the GS end.
And having the tables take a long time to import really slows down development. Every time I need to import a new version of the map, it takes minutes to import it.
And I think the two problems are quite possibly related at the GS end.
@Hymloe I wonder if there is another way of doing this without copying tables? I have a few games with tables, some of them with hundreds of thousands of cells, and I see no performance issues at all, but I am not doing anything with the copy function. I know you want GS to fix the issue, but instead of waiting indefinitely for a fix, maybe you could rework your logic. Usually in my games when I need to record what is unlocked I usually update the map table with values to show what is unlocked, or have two tables, one for the map, and one that shows what is unlocked.
If your game isn't complete except for the copy table needing speeding up, there's still plenty you can be doing. Just force it to wait long enough for the copy table as an interim measure then crack on with everything else! Nothing stopping you making progress on your game.
Slow table importing is more of an inconvenience than a critical issue and it will be prioritized as such. Copying tables may or may not be related, but since we don't have a test project to work with it's hard to know if anything we do addresses your particular copying issue.
When the status changes the bug will be updated, and if we fix it you'll see that both in the bug and the release notes.
It just feels laborious to have a project working properly, get a GS update, and it's badly broken, and all debugging and fault finding is put at my end, even though I can't see inside the code, I can't run it through a debugger and examine what's going on. GS can. But it's lumped on me to create a simple project that reproduces a bug that large complex projects seem to suffer from.
It's just a repeat of the last problem all over again.
One project dead, and despite many hours of me trying to figure it out, sending in projects and examples, it is not fixed a year later.
And now, my newer project is now broken, and un-shippable, and it looks like another year of the same ahead.
Can't GS take some responsibility for finding the CAUSE of these problems (whoever's fault it is), and educate everyone on what went wrong (even if it's my fault), and say, "You can't do X, Y or Z, and make sure you always go A, B and C if you're trying such and such a feature").
Game Salad are the ones who should understand the engine itself, and the Creator, etc, the best. They should be able to run a project, and see what's going on, why there's a problem.
Game Salad are the engine team.
They need to be responsible for explaining why a certain data set has a problem, or why the engine can or can't do something.
Game Salad has NOT made it easy. Not on my last two games. It has killed them, and not been able to clearly point out what the problem is, nor fix the issue.
@Hymloe said:
Reading between the lines... "It won't be fixed or looked at any time soon."
Too bad, so sad. Four years. What a blessed 4 years.
There are 3 bugs you've reported.
Two of the bugs are are issues with memory which makes your game and others unplayable that have been ongoing for long time. I have spent the last several weeks working almost full-time on that and we are getting close to a solution. There are still some issues to solve since some of the fixes conflict with the way the engine is used in Creator for parsing and preview. I'm hoping we can get that out soon if we're able to resolve those issues and no other showstoppers pop up during testing. Since it is a change that would affect every game published after we make the fix live it will require quite a bit of testing on many different devices and operating systems in addition to the two Creator platforms.
The third bug is slow importing that was reported less than 2 weeks ago. It doesn't make any games unplayable but I do appreciate that it is annoying. My guess is it will take between 2 and 4 days to investigate, possibly solve, and test to make sure it doesn't break anything. If I thought there was a quick fix I'd look at it sooner, but I don't believe that is the case.
I hope you would agree that the memory issue should have a higher priority than slow importing.
If you can get to the bottom of (and fix without further conflicts) the bigger table memory problems, that would be most excellent, George. Thanks for investigating. Sounds somewhat promising.
owen_dennisJust a guy, you know.Member, PROPosts: 236
Awesome! This is exciting. I've been going through my game and changing things all over to try and get around that memory issue, hoping I could sort of work around it or something, but I'm pretty sure I keep running up against it. I've got one more idea to test out that'll take a week or so to try (remaking an actor to make sure it's not corrupted, but I doubt it is), but if that doesn't work I'm at my wit's end. So that's great! Thanks a lot for your hard work. I know sometimes it can feel like it's unappreciated, but I can tell you with sincerity, I very much appreciate it.
It would be nice if we had a current state of what's being worked on. Kinda of like a work ticket. Not sure if the can be added to the bug system. Since the road map is generic at this point "fixing bug and issue" it would be a morale booster to have an idea what bugs are currently being tackled.
I agree with @Lost_Oasis_Games , it would also limit the flood of comments asking what's being worked on. A more short-term roadmap that is updated at the beginning of each week or even everyday would be very helpful in my opinion. Happy to hear that the memory issue is being tackled
I agree with Lost_Oasis_Games and supafly129. It would also make keeping up with the Forum much easier without reading multiple comments in numerous threads all asking the same questions, day after day!
It would cut down on the amount of stuff the GS Team have to waste time reading, and responding to in a piecemeal fashion, as well.
Comments
Just got my fourth anniversary badge.
Haven't released a game since 2012.
Table problems killed all my larger projects I've been working on since 2012.
I know (from lots of your forum posts) that you have had issues with your game(s) and tables. I have published and built more than 40 games within the last 12 months. Only 1 game has had an issue with tables. This game had 2 separate issues and was easily fixed. One was using names to address names and columns rather than numerical values and the other was updating a Table Cell Value with its own value which I know you are aware of. Lots of my games use tables and I encourage the use of them but I don't see the same issues you find with yours. Whislt I know of issues of tables and HTML (via @Armelline ), I don't see any other issues using tables for anything. I have seen @Armelline and @Hopscotch try to help you too but I really think you have ANOTHER UNDERLYING ISSUE with your game. I Know its easy to blame GS for an issue but 90% of the time it is down to logic. I know this first hand, we all make mistakes (including GS). Maybe its time to start this game from scratch and build it again (testing along the way). At least this way you can see where it went wrong and really find the problem. Waiting for GS to fix this for you is a long shot right now. I don't know if they know if it is a bug or not. Hell we all don't know if its a bug of not. Rebuilding your game will only solve your issue right now (in my opinion). Which you can take or dismiss, Im just offering advice here.
Best Regards
Have you tried importing my table into GS?
http://www.muzboz.com/Host/GameSalad/Map1.csv
It now takes about 90 seconds, instead of 1 or 2 seconds.
That is not even involving any game code or logic.
I know other people claim to have big tables that import fine.
But why has my table suddenly got some problem with it, even though it's the same table as the one that imported in a second or two in a previous version of GS?
@Hymloe there is/was a bug with importing large tables. It might be fixed but slowed down the import. Maybe that's related. I'm curious why the import time really matters though, isn't it a one and done type thing? Are you constantly importing or copying tables during gameplay?
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@jonmulcahy said:
Whenever I save and load the player's progress, I need to Copy a bunch of tables, recording things like which tiles the player has revealed, etc. It now takes minutes on end, instead of being a matter of seconds. That's the bit where, if it doesn't get fixed, it's not worth releasing the game at all, and so it's "game over" unless that gets fixed at the GS end.
And having the tables take a long time to import really slows down development. Every time I need to import a new version of the map, it takes minutes to import it.
And I think the two problems are quite possibly related at the GS end.
@Hymloe I wonder if there is another way of doing this without copying tables? I have a few games with tables, some of them with hundreds of thousands of cells, and I see no performance issues at all, but I am not doing anything with the copy function. I know you want GS to fix the issue, but instead of waiting indefinitely for a fix, maybe you could rework your logic. Usually in my games when I need to record what is unlocked I usually update the map table with values to show what is unlocked, or have two tables, one for the map, and one that shows what is unlocked.
There is more than one way to skin a cat
Send and Receive Data using your own Server Tutorial! | Vote for A Long Way Home on Steam Greenlight! | Ten Years Left
I can't make "Import Table" work any faster, so I'm keen to see that fixed at the GS end.
And if that inadvertently fixes my Copy Table problem, then great, I'm back to where I was at a month ago. Whoopeee!
If your game isn't complete except for the copy table needing speeding up, there's still plenty you can be doing. Just force it to wait long enough for the copy table as an interim measure then crack on with everything else! Nothing stopping you making progress on your game.
Contact me for custom work - Expert GS developer with 15 years of GS experience - Skype: armelline.support
Waiting a year for the other fix that killed my other game has done me no good.
So I worry about any extra work done on my game with the new batch of show stoppers. Could all be a waste of time, right?
I expect Game Salad to quickly address any points where GS has gone backwards or broken things. I just want to hear an update on it.
I appreciate all your advice and feedback everyone. Thank you.
Now, GS, have you made any progress on the slow Import Table problem?
Slow table importing is more of an inconvenience than a critical issue and it will be prioritized as such. Copying tables may or may not be related, but since we don't have a test project to work with it's hard to know if anything we do addresses your particular copying issue.
When the status changes the bug will be updated, and if we fix it you'll see that both in the bug and the release notes.
Reading between the lines... "It won't be fixed or looked at any time soon."
Too bad, so sad. Four years. What a blessed 4 years.
I shall endeavour to make a project that somehow reproduces the problem for the Copy Table thing.
It just feels laborious to have a project working properly, get a GS update, and it's badly broken, and all debugging and fault finding is put at my end, even though I can't see inside the code, I can't run it through a debugger and examine what's going on. GS can. But it's lumped on me to create a simple project that reproduces a bug that large complex projects seem to suffer from.
It's just a repeat of the last problem all over again.
One project dead, and despite many hours of me trying to figure it out, sending in projects and examples, it is not fixed a year later.
And now, my newer project is now broken, and un-shippable, and it looks like another year of the same ahead.
Can't GS take some responsibility for finding the CAUSE of these problems (whoever's fault it is), and educate everyone on what went wrong (even if it's my fault), and say, "You can't do X, Y or Z, and make sure you always go A, B and C if you're trying such and such a feature").
Game Salad are the ones who should understand the engine itself, and the Creator, etc, the best. They should be able to run a project, and see what's going on, why there's a problem.
Game Salad are the engine team.
They need to be responsible for explaining why a certain data set has a problem, or why the engine can or can't do something.
From the main website landing page:
"GAMESALAD MAKES IT EASY"
Game Salad has NOT made it easy. Not on my last two games. It has killed them, and not been able to clearly point out what the problem is, nor fix the issue.
There are 3 bugs you've reported.
Two of the bugs are are issues with memory which makes your game and others unplayable that have been ongoing for long time. I have spent the last several weeks working almost full-time on that and we are getting close to a solution. There are still some issues to solve since some of the fixes conflict with the way the engine is used in Creator for parsing and preview. I'm hoping we can get that out soon if we're able to resolve those issues and no other showstoppers pop up during testing. Since it is a change that would affect every game published after we make the fix live it will require quite a bit of testing on many different devices and operating systems in addition to the two Creator platforms.
The third bug is slow importing that was reported less than 2 weeks ago. It doesn't make any games unplayable but I do appreciate that it is annoying. My guess is it will take between 2 and 4 days to investigate, possibly solve, and test to make sure it doesn't break anything. If I thought there was a quick fix I'd look at it sooner, but I don't believe that is the case.
I hope you would agree that the memory issue should have a higher priority than slow importing.
If you can get to the bottom of (and fix without further conflicts) the bigger table memory problems, that would be most excellent, George. Thanks for investigating. Sounds somewhat promising.
Awesome! This is exciting. I've been going through my game and changing things all over to try and get around that memory issue, hoping I could sort of work around it or something, but I'm pretty sure I keep running up against it. I've got one more idea to test out that'll take a week or so to try (remaking an actor to make sure it's not corrupted, but I doubt it is), but if that doesn't work I'm at my wit's end. So that's great! Thanks a lot for your hard work. I know sometimes it can feel like it's unappreciated, but I can tell you with sincerity, I very much appreciate it.
I look forward to that update!
Vote for Nearest Neighbor Scaling option in gamesalad! Let's make our games look truly stunning!
@GeorgeGS Thank you so much for listening to our concerns with memory issues and working hard to fix them! Makes me very excited.
www.rossmanbrosgames.com
It would be nice if we had a current state of what's being worked on. Kinda of like a work ticket. Not sure if the can be added to the bug system. Since the road map is generic at this point "fixing bug and issue" it would be a morale booster to have an idea what bugs are currently being tackled.
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I agree with @Lost_Oasis_Games , it would also limit the flood of comments asking what's being worked on. A more short-term roadmap that is updated at the beginning of each week or even everyday would be very helpful in my opinion. Happy to hear that the memory issue is being tackled
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I agree with Lost_Oasis_Games and supafly129. It would also make keeping up with the Forum much easier without reading multiple comments in numerous threads all asking the same questions, day after day!
It would cut down on the amount of stuff the GS Team have to waste time reading, and responding to in a piecemeal fashion, as well.