If any of you guys have "Vine" go on there and search "Appstore" or maybe Space Vortex,Flying Escape,Grapple Monkey,Don't Fall Ball...my game is on there to but I don't have the followers,lol
Says pretty much everything I feel about cloning (and by extension clone templates), I thought these quotes particularly summed it up for me.
Ridiculous Fishing was stolen. That's what you and I would call it. In game development (particularly in the Wild West of mobile game development), they call it "cloning." Basically, someone took the guts of the game, made it look different, then sold it as their own.
Nijman started to wonder if game design was a worthwhile career in the first place. When someone can come along and take an idea that you've created and sell it as their own, with no consequences, what's the point of creating?
The bottom line, says Ismail, is that clones hurt the industry. They stifle innovation, damage reputations and force original, creative developers out of business.
More Mateen news, not sure if it's old or not. "Firoozeh Morady" has a new game on the top paid charts named "Flying Escape", with only 22 reviews. I looked at more of "Morady's" games, and one is clearly a GameSalad game that I remember seeing on youtube that caused me to look into GameSalad. Original art assets and all. Nothing is different. Unless this is the only game he actually made, that's not just 'cloning' or even stealing the file and changing the art, but stealing the whole damn thing.
Almost all of his apps are straight up GameSalad files and templates it seems.
tenrdrmerMember, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-ChefPosts: 9,934
This is the major force behind my leaving behind the template world for good. I just hate the entire essence of templates anymore. They are literally destroying this industry. To be clear not just GameSalad templates. Basically all game templates. It was a great idea to start with because man what a great way into such a hard industry. By having a good base to start your game from. But people have ruined it. Greedy worthless people are ruining this industry.
It's all very interesting. I do, however have my own opinons about money. According to my knowledge, wealth is the most powerful tool of creation. As an end in it's self, money is of no value. Even the lavish things money can buy arn't nearly as important as the amazing things money can create. Systems like GS make it so that people without oodles of dollars can create amazing things, and if their creations are truly valuable, then they can make money off of them. I don't care if you guys are religious or not. But I find the bible to be full of contemporary wisdom."For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after,they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." ~1 timothy chapter 6 verse 10 KJV
What i think this means is that greed, in essence; is the root of all evil, not the use of it, even if it is in large sums.
I mean, can you guys imagine the simply astounding games you could make if your budget for each of them was 1,000,000 whatever form of currency you use.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that being wealthy, in living in a mansion, and driving sweet cars is wrong, quite the opposite. But Greed is wrong, I think. I suppose what I'm saying is that we ought to be charitable if we are wealthy.
I think that money is an amazing tool. Morally speaking, and in terms of the bible, you have a responsibility to build wealth because of the amazing things you can do with it.
I think the best way to say it is that greed is wrong, but self interest is a moral responsibility. And there are very distinct differences between them based on your intent.
Some people's intent is to make something amazing and original to entertain people. Some people want to scheme, scam, steal and swindle. And the ironic thing is it will always bite them in the end.
@Brenton222 said:
I think that money is an amazing tool. Morally speaking, and in terms of the bible, you have a responsibility to build wealth because of the amazing things you can do with it.
I think the best way to say it is that greed is wrong, but self interest is a moral responsibility. And there are very distinct differences between them based on your intent.
Some people's intent is to make something amazing and original to entertain people. Some people want to scheme, scam, steal and swindle. And the ironic thing is it will always bite them in the end.
The bible confers on you a moral responsibility to build wealth and become self interested ? I think you can interpret the bible to mean whatever you want it to mean, whether you want to condemn homosexuality or praise charity, buy yourself a mansion or enslave a nation, it's all in there if you look hard enough.
I think the only people with the power to stop the cloning business are the App Stores.
You would think that an industry that so zealously guards its own IP rights regarding their devices would be a bit more pro active in protecting their dev customers rights.
If they confiscated the funds for the clones and awarded them to the original dev, it would stop the whole thing in its tracks.
A bit of quality control by the app stores would also help the indie dev.
Maybe some sort of online petition could be set up and brought to the attention of the Stores signed by indie devs.
@Fal01 said:
I think the only people with the power to stop the cloning business are the App Stores.
The App Store, the template makers and of course the cloners themselves, all part of the problem to a lesser or greater extent - and to some degree the whole culture of the mobile game dev industry (that is yet to really recognise the threat) is also to blame.
@Fal01 said:
If they confiscated the funds for the clones and awarded them to the original dev, it would stop the whole thing in its tracks.
Unfortunately clones - unless identical - are neither illegal nor break the App Store's terms, the other issue is that from a business standpoint a clone at number 7 in the paid chart makes Apple as much money as the original at number 7 in the paid chart, there's no real impetus (business wise) to chase the clones out of the App Store.
@Fal01 said:
A bit of quality control by the app stores would also help the indie dev.
Agreed, I think it would help the App Store in the long term too, I'm all for the democratization of game-making but the App Store is overflowing with some really low quality, often risible, stuff, I've seen apps that have made me wonder how on earth they got through any kind of quality control, I mean really laughably bad stuff.
@Fal01 said:
Maybe some sort of online petition could be set up and brought to the attention of the Stores signed by indie devs.
Sounds like a great idea, I think you'd need to be clear on your objectives, rather than a simple 'down with clones!' type approach I think you'd have to carefully define the issue, how it will impact Apple in the long term (if even only indirectly), what defines a clone and so on, but generally speaking I'd sign anything that might bring the problem to the attention of Apple.
Yeah I guess you are right, there are too many grey areas where copying is concerned, unless it is an outright clone.
I mean the case in question Danger Cats, there are tons of games using this mechanic and I have no idea which was the first. Firemaple could probably get him on the blatant plagiarism of his write up, but it wouldn't take much effort to change that in an update.
I suppose unless you carve out a niche audience for your games using a hard to copy format (like I am trying to do with point and click games), then you are going to be open to copying.
@Brenton222 said:
I think that money is an amazing tool. Morally speaking, and in terms of the bible, you have a responsibility to build wealth because of the amazing things you can do with it.
Not really. The Bible is pretty clear that you don't need wealth to do good things. But the Bible's stance against wealth isn't because wealth leads to evil, it's because if you're fixated on wealth you aren't paying proper attention to God.
I'm not religious, but I always found that particular justification for abhorring wealth to be pointless. I always believed anyone who spends all their time in prayer is as bad as someone who spends all their time focused on making money. The bottom line is, doing either means you aren't actually helping people, and it's helping people that makes a positive difference in this world.
I guess my feeling about clones is, broadly, similar. Making a game that is a clone of another game, with no real changes to the mechanics (so reskinning/directly copying rather than "cloning") adds nothing to the world, doesn't help the industry progress. Make original games - or at least adapt and expand on existing ones - and it makes a positive difference in this world.
And yes, I totally just suggested Jesus would have disapproved of cloning.
@Armelline said:
And yes, I totally just suggested Jesus would have disapproved of cloning.
Matthew 21:12 ~"Jesus entered the App Store and drove out all who were cloning and selling there. He overturned the tables of the template makers and the benches of those selling flappy birds."
I read on a news site today that apple and google are trying to get exclusives and give publisher who do so a nice spot on the AppStore. And if that isn't bad enough they give that privilege to the bigger publishers only (for as far as I understand the article). The stores are really going the wrong way with this. I hate it.
@LumpApps said:
Who turned over my table yesterday??
I read on a news site today that apple and google are trying to get exclusives and give publisher who do so a nice spot on the AppStore. And if that isn't bad enough they give that privilege to the bigger publishers only (for as far as I understand the article). The stores are really going the wrong way with this. I hate it.
Um, that's been happening since the beginning of gaming. Nothing wrong with it. If anything, it's better for the industry.
If Xbox One and PS4 all had exactly the same games, no exclusives, there would be no reason for both consoles and as a result, no competition. Competition keeps things moving forward
And of course it's only going to happen with bigger publishers/well known franchises. Who's going to care about an iOS exclusive game from some obscure developer?
Might be, but giving privileges too bigger companies knocks out the smaller ones. It should be about game quality, not the biggest publisher. The mobile market was giving the little ones a change but not anymore I guess. Unless you scam your way to the top. Or am I too negative?
We have seen this in the music industry for ages. The quality of music/musicians/writers is less important then the dept of your pockets. And there, faking vocal quality with auto tuning makes it even worse.
Comments
@quantumsheep totally, all the more awesome to imagine you rocking out with a guitar now!
And by justice you mean his knees right? oh crap did i say that out loud?
If any of you guys have "Vine" go on there and search "Appstore" or maybe Space Vortex,Flying Escape,Grapple Monkey,Don't Fall Ball...my game is on there to but I don't have the followers,lol
Lol !
just tagging @firemaplegames in case he didn't see that his thread took on a life of it's own
Send and Receive Data using your own Server Tutorial! | Vote for A Long Way Home on Steam Greenlight! | Ten Years Left
I was very cool when I was young. Before the internet
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
Sorry to maintain derailment, but what kinda guitar and gear do you have, @quantumsheep
He has an air guitar.
Several, including an air guitar ( thanks @socks )
Pride and joy is my 1989 Les Paul Standard
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
@quantumsheep,
I thought you would play a ewekulele.
I'll get my coat!
It’s not a bug – it’s an undocumented feature
:O
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
But hey, back on topic, I found this to be an inspiring read:
http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/4/24/4257958/cloned-at-birth-the-story-of-ridiculous-fishing
QS =D
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
Yea, agree with all of that.
Send and Receive Data using your own Server Tutorial! | Vote for A Long Way Home on Steam Greenlight! | Ten Years Left
Great article / video, cheers for sharing.
Says pretty much everything I feel about cloning (and by extension clone templates), I thought these quotes particularly summed it up for me.
Ridiculous Fishing was stolen. That's what you and I would call it. In game development (particularly in the Wild West of mobile game development), they call it "cloning." Basically, someone took the guts of the game, made it look different, then sold it as their own.
Nijman started to wonder if game design was a worthwhile career in the first place. When someone can come along and take an idea that you've created and sell it as their own, with no consequences, what's the point of creating?
The bottom line, says Ismail, is that clones hurt the industry. They stifle innovation, damage reputations and force original, creative developers out of business.
More Mateen news, not sure if it's old or not. "Firoozeh Morady" has a new game on the top paid charts named "Flying Escape", with only 22 reviews. I looked at more of "Morady's" games, and one is clearly a GameSalad game that I remember seeing on youtube that caused me to look into GameSalad. Original art assets and all. Nothing is different. Unless this is the only game he actually made, that's not just 'cloning' or even stealing the file and changing the art, but stealing the whole damn thing.
Almost all of his apps are straight up GameSalad files and templates it seems.
This is the major force behind my leaving behind the template world for good. I just hate the entire essence of templates anymore. They are literally destroying this industry. To be clear not just GameSalad templates. Basically all game templates. It was a great idea to start with because man what a great way into such a hard industry. By having a good base to start your game from. But people have ruined it. Greedy worthless people are ruining this industry.
It's all very interesting. I do, however have my own opinons about money. According to my knowledge, wealth is the most powerful tool of creation. As an end in it's self, money is of no value. Even the lavish things money can buy arn't nearly as important as the amazing things money can create. Systems like GS make it so that people without oodles of dollars can create amazing things, and if their creations are truly valuable, then they can make money off of them. I don't care if you guys are religious or not. But I find the bible to be full of contemporary wisdom."For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after,they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." ~1 timothy chapter 6 verse 10 KJV
What i think this means is that greed, in essence; is the root of all evil, not the use of it, even if it is in large sums.
I mean, can you guys imagine the simply astounding games you could make if your budget for each of them was 1,000,000 whatever form of currency you use.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that being wealthy, in living in a mansion, and driving sweet cars is wrong, quite the opposite. But Greed is wrong, I think. I suppose what I'm saying is that we ought to be charitable if we are wealthy.
I think that money is an amazing tool. Morally speaking, and in terms of the bible, you have a responsibility to build wealth because of the amazing things you can do with it.
I think the best way to say it is that greed is wrong, but self interest is a moral responsibility. And there are very distinct differences between them based on your intent.
Some people's intent is to make something amazing and original to entertain people. Some people want to scheme, scam, steal and swindle. And the ironic thing is it will always bite them in the end.
You wouldn't be the first to use the bible to justify 'sweet cars', a mansion or two and vast wealth
The bible confers on you a moral responsibility to build wealth and become self interested ? I think you can interpret the bible to mean whatever you want it to mean, whether you want to condemn homosexuality or praise charity, buy yourself a mansion or enslave a nation, it's all in there if you look hard enough.
I think the only people with the power to stop the cloning business are the App Stores.
You would think that an industry that so zealously guards its own IP rights regarding their devices would be a bit more pro active in protecting their dev customers rights.
If they confiscated the funds for the clones and awarded them to the original dev, it would stop the whole thing in its tracks.
A bit of quality control by the app stores would also help the indie dev.
Maybe some sort of online petition could be set up and brought to the attention of the Stores signed by indie devs.
It’s not a bug – it’s an undocumented feature
The App Store, the template makers and of course the cloners themselves, all part of the problem to a lesser or greater extent - and to some degree the whole culture of the mobile game dev industry (that is yet to really recognise the threat) is also to blame.
Unfortunately clones - unless identical - are neither illegal nor break the App Store's terms, the other issue is that from a business standpoint a clone at number 7 in the paid chart makes Apple as much money as the original at number 7 in the paid chart, there's no real impetus (business wise) to chase the clones out of the App Store.
Agreed, I think it would help the App Store in the long term too, I'm all for the democratization of game-making but the App Store is overflowing with some really low quality, often risible, stuff, I've seen apps that have made me wonder how on earth they got through any kind of quality control, I mean really laughably bad stuff.
Sounds like a great idea, I think you'd need to be clear on your objectives, rather than a simple 'down with clones!' type approach I think you'd have to carefully define the issue, how it will impact Apple in the long term (if even only indirectly), what defines a clone and so on, but generally speaking I'd sign anything that might bring the problem to the attention of Apple.
Yeah I guess you are right, there are too many grey areas where copying is concerned, unless it is an outright clone.
I mean the case in question Danger Cats, there are tons of games using this mechanic and I have no idea which was the first. Firemaple could probably get him on the blatant plagiarism of his write up, but it wouldn't take much effort to change that in an update.
I suppose unless you carve out a niche audience for your games using a hard to copy format (like I am trying to do with point and click games), then you are going to be open to copying.
It’s not a bug – it’s an undocumented feature
Not really. The Bible is pretty clear that you don't need wealth to do good things. But the Bible's stance against wealth isn't because wealth leads to evil, it's because if you're fixated on wealth you aren't paying proper attention to God.
I'm not religious, but I always found that particular justification for abhorring wealth to be pointless. I always believed anyone who spends all their time in prayer is as bad as someone who spends all their time focused on making money. The bottom line is, doing either means you aren't actually helping people, and it's helping people that makes a positive difference in this world.
I guess my feeling about clones is, broadly, similar. Making a game that is a clone of another game, with no real changes to the mechanics (so reskinning/directly copying rather than "cloning") adds nothing to the world, doesn't help the industry progress. Make original games - or at least adapt and expand on existing ones - and it makes a positive difference in this world.
And yes, I totally just suggested Jesus would have disapproved of cloning.
Contact me for custom work - Expert GS developer with 15 years of GS experience - Skype: armelline.support
Matthew 21:12 ~"Jesus entered the App Store and drove out all who were cloning and selling there. He overturned the tables of the template makers and the benches of those selling flappy birds."
Should I release my Flappy Clone?
no
>:) yes
If Jesus cloned my game, I'd punch him. Right in the mouth.
Who turned over my table yesterday??
I read on a news site today that apple and google are trying to get exclusives and give publisher who do so a nice spot on the AppStore. And if that isn't bad enough they give that privilege to the bigger publishers only (for as far as I understand the article). The stores are really going the wrong way with this. I hate it.
Edit: http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20140420-701134.html
Lump Apps and My Assets
Um, that's been happening since the beginning of gaming. Nothing wrong with it. If anything, it's better for the industry.
If Xbox One and PS4 all had exactly the same games, no exclusives, there would be no reason for both consoles and as a result, no competition. Competition keeps things moving forward
And of course it's only going to happen with bigger publishers/well known franchises. Who's going to care about an iOS exclusive game from some obscure developer?
Might be, but giving privileges too bigger companies knocks out the smaller ones. It should be about game quality, not the biggest publisher. The mobile market was giving the little ones a change but not anymore I guess. Unless you scam your way to the top. Or am I too negative?
We have seen this in the music industry for ages. The quality of music/musicians/writers is less important then the dept of your pockets. And there, faking vocal quality with auto tuning makes it even worse.
Lump Apps and My Assets