dgackeyAustin, TXInactive, PRO, Chef EmeritusPosts: 699
edited July 2015
To address a few assertions made in the original post:
for one, despite the fact that I fall in the category that benefits from this change, see the move a poor rash decision, without much thought put into it.
I think you're conflating the swiftness with which the change was implemented and the perceived amount of "thought put into it". I can assure you there has been a great deal of thought put into the pricing model at GS. There have been ongoing conversations about it for literally years.
What I hear in this statement is that the implementation caught people by surprise, and that's certainly understandable, given that we're working on a much more tight loop of iteration, feedback, improvement, versus the old way of top-down grandiose release planning that took months to get something out the door.
But by going in this new direction, GameSalad is going the opposite way than larger professional companies.
It all depends on what you're comparing GS to. Many folks seem intent on comparing us to Unity or other high-end game engines that depend on big publisher site licenses and royalties from hit games to keep them afloat. I think we can all agree that this is not the core GS market.
So what is? As we've been saying quite a bit lately, it's folks who are hobbyists and those who want to learn how to make games. And in that context, what is GS? It's a tool that makes your life easier as a hobbyist game developer, and a platform/community that helps you learn how to make games.
Breaking this down a little further, there's actually a pretty strong move AWAY from F2P models with most SaaS (Software as a service) businesses. People don't mind paying for products that offer them a decent value, but want to be fairly billed and want to make sure they can try first and cancel at any time. That's exactly what we're offering here -- a game development tool that makes your life easier, is affordable, and doesn't lock you into any long-term commitment.
Finally, our new commitment towards education and really helping people actually learn how to develop games is a critical one, and you'll note that there have actually been an explosion of these kinds of businesses over the past few years. While some are free, the vast majority are not -- again, people will pay for good quality content, and expect that "you get what you pay for".
Think of GS in those terms -- a membership site that helps you learn how to develop games via a large selection of tutorials, sample assets, and a supportive community, with the added bonus of giving you access to a proprietary tool that is designed to work with the content and supports you along the journey to becoming a successful indie developer. Is that worth paying monthly for?
Our belief is yes. In fact, there are a nontrivial number of companies who charge their users a monthly fee for game design education and have sustained their businesses using this model that actually depend on the free version of GameSalad, so we know there's a market. And why not go to the source?
I still believe there could (and should) be a place for a free tier -- one that would allow people to learn to use GS Creator and fall in love with it -- but would have no, absolutely ZERO publishing options.
For all intents and purposes, that's been tried - or at least an ad-crippled iOS publishing variant of this idea. It's not sustainable.
but for people elsewhere, especially in countries where schools are unlikely to teach GS and where $19 a month is NOT a child's pocket money this is a slap in the face.
We're not looking to slap anyone in the face. But also bear in mind that GS is not marketing to children (we still prohibit children under the age of 13 from registering accounts per the EULA) and we do have a VERY affordable institutional licensing program, so there is almost no reason why any school couldn't afford GS if they wanted to.
Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com
The challenge with free-to-use and pay-to-publish is that most users would use the free version to make their game and then only subscribe the month they publish or update their games. If there was a way to avoid this issue it may be possible to create a free version.
@ viking I talked about this in a different thread. 2 different programs, one to learn the basics and is locked & limited, and when you want to go Pro you get a different, full version. The full version would cause you to learn the other half of things while you pay
@pHghost said:
As to your straw man: you are just trying to dismiss everything based on lack of quoting what you said, but completely disregard the substance of my posts. This is nothing specifically against you, so please try to get over that and consider the arguments on their own merits.
Nonsense they are unambiguously straw man arguments - you cannot quote anyone who has said anything even remotely like your suggestions because no one has said anything even remotely close to your suggestions.
@The_Gamesalad_Guru said:
I've already produced the first video of a series making a simple brick breaker game. I expect the series to be done next week sometime. How's that for charity?
You selfish, privileged, unabashed, self-righteous and ignorant son of a b*tch ! How dare you, who do you think you are looking down on others like this.
I personally think this is the wrong way to go. I don't think it's a good business decision.
It's a short sighted decision based on what their software CURRENTLY does and how it CURRENTLY works.
I can't think of a single company where they have reduced the value given to their fans/customers and it's turned out well.
While I understand the need to make money, I think there could have been a better way to do it.
15 days is really an awfully short time period to get to learn and really decide if you want to use GameSalad. Perhaps if you're targeting young kids with lots of excess time, but then you're going after the wrong market since they don't really have money.
You're target audience are older teens and adults. That means, especially with adults, that people have busy schedules and they may work on it, say on the weekends. That gives them what... maybe 4-5 hours for Friday, Saturday, Sunday... and the same for the next weekend. That's 24-30 hours of watching tutorials, playing around, etc. to learn it, then come up to the forums to ask questions, wait for answers, etc.
I think 15 days is a very arbitrary and not a very well thought out number when you consider how people ACTUALLY use your software.
Remember, you're not talking about die hard game designers at this point, you're talking about POTENTIAL game designers who haven't fully committed.
I recommend that you change that to more like 30-60 days trial but with NO PUBLISHING. So, they can create and play around with GameSalad and watch their game in the previewer, but not publish it - even to the arcade. In this way, you give people the ability to actually LEARN GameSalad and build a few games but when they want to publish it, they have to upgrade.
I also recommend starting an affiliate program and start getting your loyal people working for you and giving them incentives to get people to you. Give them 10% of the referral's purchases. You'd be surprised how hard people will work for a little extra.
While it's "money out of your pocket", I have rarely seen an affiliate program that didn't result in increased sales and visibility - two things GameSalad needs.
I've been an internet marketer for years, so if you need any advice in this area, I'm happy to talk with someone about it.
@Socks Sorry, but I'm not interested in a conversation with someone who stoops down to belittling language and sarcasm instead of real arguments to support their case and have a constructive conversation. We've had many exchanges in the past and I've always respected you and your opinions (both where we agreed and disagreed), but this is truly absurd.
@ookami007 I agree about the trial length, specifically because for most users that trial will probably end up as a 4 day trial - two weekends. My suggestion is to make it 15 days, only counting days where you actually boot up the software. That makes it much more likely people will actually get a 15 day trial.
@ookami007 said:
15 days is really an awfully short time period to get to learn and really decide if you want to use GameSalad.
This is exactly the next problem to solve for us. We need to ensure you can find success in game making in a matter of hours, not days. My goal for the group is to get folks up and running making a successful game in an hour or less. Sure, it'll be a basic game, but getting folks success quickly is critical.
You can already follow along at http://learn.gamesalad.com and build your first game in about an hour. And we're just getting started.
@dgackey said:
we're working on a much more tight loop of iteration, feedback, improvement, versus the old way of top-down grandiose release planning that took months to get something out the door.
Very cool! Looking forward to that!
Thanks for your whole response, it explains quite a bit of what was missing from the other thread.
Of course, if this is currently the only viable way forward, it must be done. Nobody here wants GameSalad to die. If it goes tummy up financially, then it's game over for everyone, since you need to go through the sever to publish etc.
I still think there is a hole here, and for some this approach might be a considerable obstacle, but as long as you are aware of it, I trust you'll try to make the best decisions possible.
@pHghost said:
Socks Sorry, but I'm not interested in a conversation with someone who stoops down to belittling language . . .
Seriously ! 'Belittling' ? Lol
You have labelled me (and others) as being unabashed, of being self-righteousness, of talking down to people, of being privileged, of lacking concern for the vulnerable and dispossessed of this world, of being ignorant . . . and so on . . . (insult after insult) and it's you who feels slighted by this conversation !
Guilty as charged, although I would say in my defence sarcasm doesn't quite have the same sting here in the UK as it does in other English speaking nations, over here it's more akin to humour or playful teasing, elsewhere it's often seen as aggressive or confrontational - but regardless, guilty as charged, I'm often sarcastic !
@pHghost said:
instead of real arguments to support their case and have a constructive conversation.
Complete nonsense, I've tried to engage you in conversation and you've run away, very simply because you cannot support your ridiculous idea that describing the new pricing scheme as relatively affordable is some kind of attack on the vulnerable of this word !
@pHghost said:
We've had many exchanges in the past and I've always respected you and your opinions (both where we agreed and disagreed), but this is truly absurd.
Absolutely ! Your initial notion was absurd, and has been made all the more absurd by your straw man arguments and inability (or unwillingness) to support your claims.
@Armelline said:
ookami007 I agree about the trial length, specifically because for most users that trial will probably end up as a 4 day trial - two weekends. My suggestion is to make it 15 days, only counting days where you actually boot up the software. That makes it much more likely people will actually get a 15 day trial.
@Armelline - that's a good idea too, but I'm worried that opening it for a few minutes would kill one of your days. Maybe measure it in actual hours used? Of course, if the person walks away or leaves it on then their hours run out.
I'm sure there got to be a better way. I'm just worried about people trying it out and giving up when the time runs out.
@CodeWizard said:
You can already follow along at http://learn.gamesalad.com and build your first game in about an hour. And we're just getting started.
@CodeWizard - You're thinking like a programmer. Think like a customer. You don't want to just create ANY game. You want to create YOUR game. The game that's been bouncing around your head for however long.
That's why you need a longer period... draw them in, let them learn and then start on THEIR game. That's when you get them hooked...
dgackeyAustin, TXInactive, PRO, Chef EmeritusPosts: 699
As @CodeWizard has already stated, the length of the trial period is not set in stone and we'll revisit if necessary based on what the data tells us.
The other suggestions you (and others) have mentioned are well-appreciated, but do not, unfortunately, move the needle in our case.
We were doing F2P long before it was cool
I can't think of a single company where they have reduced the value given to their fans/customers and it's turned out well.
Fans and customers are two different things, and we're absolutely not saying that we're reducing the value we're providing to customers -- if anything, that is going to increase. I think this explains why so many existing PROs are happy with the announcement.
Fans and what people can expect for free is obviously a different discussion -- certainly nobody likes it when they have to pay for something that they once perceived as free.
However, this also assumes a lot about the average GS customer, where they come from, and what their expectations are.
I think most of us would agree that if a new company sprung up tomorrow with the promise of helping you learn how to make games through tutorials and a tool that worked the way GS did, and that company had a free trial, a buzzing community, and a group of fairly veteran users who had made really great stuff with the tool, a lot of people would find that worth paying for, wouldn't you?
The delta here is in the expectation of the longtime GS free user, who sees the value of the product in a totally different context.
Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com
@CodeWizard said:
You can already follow along at http://learn.gamesalad.com and build your first game in about an hour. And we're just getting started.
I'm already on it. Part 1 is cooking on Youtube as I write this. My goal is in one Saturday afternoon you can download creator follow along and have a game built and a solid understanding of Creator software before Dinner.
I don't feel slighted in the least. Where did that come from? Yes, I called you, myself and others here privileged, because we are, by nature of where we were born or where we live. If you see that as a straw man argument and need me to bring out some statistics about the distribution of wealth in the world, you really should pull your head out from the sand.
Yes, I called out self-righteousness and talking down because assumptions were readily made about others based on the inherent privilege some of us have, taking it as something that is shared by all.
@Socks said:
Absolutely ! Your initial notion was absurd, and has been made all the more absurd by your straw man arguments
You aren't making much sense here. My initial notion was simple: having one paid version with publishing and a free one without any publishing. You yourself agreed with that idea and said you wanted the same.
I used very specific examples of companies that went this way and what I thought was the key to their success.
I made a side comment at the very end of it, calling out an attitude I felt in the main thread. It was just a small comment at the end of several paragraphs. You took that personally and now seem to be claiming that was my whole initial notion. If anyone constructed a straw man here, it definitely wasn't me.
@pHghost said:
I don't feel slighted in the least. Where did that come from?
My posts in this thread are aimed you, I am having a conversation with you, you have said my comments are belittling . . .
_Socks Sorry, but I'm not interested in a conversation with someone who stoops down to belittling language _
. . . notice how when asked to support my claims I am happy to do so, I'm even able to quote what you said rather than making stuff up and attributing it to you.
@pHghost said:
Yes, I called you, myself and others here privileged, because we are, by nature of where we were born or where we live.
You should really only speak for yourself, if you consider yourself privileged then I'm happy for you, but you really are in no position to tell me (or others) whether we are privileged or not without really knowing anything about our lives.
@pHghost said:
If you see that as a straw man argument and need me to bring out some statistics about the distribution of wealth in the world, you really should pull your head out from the sand.
Another straw man, another insult ! Lol
I'm not sure you understand what a straw man is, the whole point is that you are constructing arguments in your head that no one has made, and then either indirectly or directly attributing to others, so you can then easily demolish them (hence a straw man, easy to push over ) - so when someone points out that you've straw manned them and you respond with some form of 'I can offer proof to support the argument' you are missing the point !
Bring out all the statistics you want on the distribution of wealth in the world, draw charts if you want, maybe do it all in the form of interpretive dance and mime, but none of it would be in anyway relevant because no one, certainly not me, has made any arguments that argue for or against any of these claims . . . . you are - literally - arguing against a position you yourself have conjured up in your mind, attempts to get you to quote where I have said any of this are avoided.
A: "I think cars should be made cheaper"
B: "Oh, so car factory workers, who rely on sales figures to stay employed, should starve to death, you ignorant, self-righteous bastard, looking down on everyone from your position of privilege ! Do you know it only takes a 17% reduction in pay for the lowest paid workers to push them over the poverty line, and do you know that the suicide rate amongst those in poverty is nearly 16 times the national average . . . (etc etc)"
A: "I didn't say any of that ! That's a straw man argument, could you show me where I have argued for any of that"
B: "No! I'm not talking to you because your horrible to me, you privileged, ignorant, self-righteous bastard"
A: "Honestly, you are just erecting silly straw man arguments"
B: "Oh, really, well if you want I can bring out some statistics showing the suicide rates amongst those in poverty . . "
. . .etc etc
@pHghost said:
Yes, I called out self-righteousness and talking down because assumptions were readily made . .
@CodeWizard said:
This is exactly the next problem to solve for us. We need to ensure you can find success in game making in a matter of hours, not days. My goal for the group is to get folks up and running making a successful game in an hour or less. Sure, it'll be a basic game, but getting folks success quickly is critical.
You can already follow along at http://learn.gamesalad.com and build your first game in about an hour. And we're just getting started.
This is truly great news I always felt the lack of really good quality documentation and learning resources direct from them that knew all the facts was a problem, some of the finer details have always felt a bit reverse engineered.
@jamie_c said:
I had no idea, so thanks for explaining. Really.
Yeah, basically you construct a 'straw man' (an argument that is comically easy to push over, like a man made of straw) and you attribute it to the person you are debating/arguing with - usually as a replacement for his actual argument - you then set about knocking down 'his' argument, or more often than not the act of attribution is enough to poison the well.
A: "I hate hospitals"
B: "Oh, so you think we should get rid of hospitals so only the very wealthy can have access to private doctors in small private clinics, so they end up being treated like royalty while the poor suffer and die without access to medical care !!"
So A's position has been caricatured as something so awful that pretty much everyone would agree is wrong, B will find it easy to then attack this caricatured position (that he, B, has in fact made up).
. . . . . . .
EDIT - an actual argument comes to mind, one that actually happened, and illustrates a straw man even better . . . it went something like this:
A: "When I was a kid we used to play out doors a lot more, these days kids don't go out as much, instead they play a lot of video games and watch a load of TV . . . "
B: "Oh, so you want kids to be running around in the traffic all hours of the day and night, skateboarding up and down the sidewalk, causing all the usual trouble that kids cause, for what ? So you can avoid your responsibility as a parent . . . "
So A is being asked to defend the indefensible, he's been asked to defend his desire to see kids 'running around in the traffic' (and so on), even though he's not made that claim at all - B has constructed a version of A's argument that is trivially easy to argue against.
Fans and customers are two different things, and we're absolutely not saying that
we're reducing the value we're providing to customers -- if anything, that is going to
increase. I think this explains why so many existing PROs are happy with the
announcement.
Keep in mind, I am a pro user and you already have my money. I just renewed my second year of PRO and I have no problem paying for a worthwhile product - which I feel GameSalad is.
That said, you are correct. Customers and fans are two different things and you get two different types of value from each.
A customer gives your DIRECT compensation. They buy your product and you benefit directly from your relationship with them.
A FAN is a person who loves your product and does things like create video tutorials, posts about it, etc. While a customer can be a fan as well, they may not be. They may just be a customer... the buy the product, do their think but don't really give back or expand the community. Unlike customers, you benefit INDIRECTLY from fans by increased exposure which leads to increased sales.
Obviously, you need to do what you need to do to survive, but just don't turn on your fans, just because they aren't customers. I've seen that happen... it has NEVER worked out for any company that's done it.
I really like GameSalad, so I'm just giving my observations of being in the software/programming industry for the last 30+ years.
I think most of us would agree that if a new company sprung up tomorrow with the
promise of helping you learn how to make games through tutorials and a tool that
worked the way GS did, and that company had a free trial, a buzzing community, and a
group of fairly veteran users who had made really great stuff with the tool, a lot of
people would find that worth paying for, wouldn't you?
Actually, I'm not quite so sure I'd agree with you. As someone who has been an internet marketer for some time, I know that OFFERS are a dime a dozen and rarely deliver. I've actually seen that VERY same offer multiple times from different companies with very limited products over the last year. Luckily, coming from a mobile development and programming background, I recognized that they were very limited and wouldn't suit my purposes.
Most users are used to crazy offers (from free software to enlarging parts of their anatomy) on the internet. So one more offer isn't necessarily going to impress. That's why I recommended a longer time to allow them to get hooked.
Besides... you're NOT a new company. You're an existing company and offered one thing... and now, offer something less. Just keep that in mind. At the end of the day, users will have LESS functionality than they did two weeks ago if they are a free user.
No matter how you spin it, that is the case. You had an unlimited free trial, now you don't. That's removing value and alienating some of your FANS, if not your CUSTOMERS.
You alienate your FANS at your own peril.
Again, you have my money. You'll continue to get my money as long as you as provide a great product. I just think you went a little too far with these changes... especially without offering the long time users a better path to upgrade.
I think maybe announcing this and then offering users who have been with you for more than 12 months a 10-20% discount (for a limited time!) to upgrade would have been FAR better. Especially the limited time... it creates both scarcity and urgency.
dgackeyAustin, TXInactive, PRO, Chef EmeritusPosts: 699
I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying. For reference, I've been making games and working with online communities (almost) since shortly after the web became a thing, so I know what you're referring to. We'll just have to see how it goes.
I do take a bit of an issue with saying we're spinning anything -- @CodeWizard and I have both been pretty blunt and as transparent as legally allowable since arriving here, and that includes having the intestinal fortitude to say things that weren't going to be popular or well received but were necessary. That hasn't changed
We've done enough research on the market and our customers to feel comfortable with this direction and it's the one we're taking right now, so I won't be participating in many more debates about why or what we could have or should have done instead, but I'll be happy to answer questions about what this will mean moving forward, because that's where everyone's focused.
Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com
@pHghost said:
For those who talk about the cheapness of the new pricing and how an 8-year old can afford this (you know who you are) -- shame on you. You are talking down to others from a privileged place with unabashed self-righteousness. I don't speak for myself here, I am also one of the privileged, but your ignorance is too much.
@Socks said:
2 weeks of free use + a month at $19 is pocket money territory, I expect any kid genuinely passionate about getting into game design will find a way to scrape together $4 or $5 a week.
I expect any kid to find a way...really...
@pHghost said:
Wow, simply wow. So just because something isn't a matter of life and death, it shouldn't be considered?
@Socks said:
We are talking about an SDK here, not access to clean water or human rights, if someone has a computer and internet access and even an iPad, then it's not unreasonable to guess they might be able to find $4 or $5 a week.
.
@pHghost said:
So all the efforts by tech companies and charities to get internet and computers to the poorest, to make better their chances and equal opportunity are misguided according to you?
@Socks said:
Lol, like I say this isn't a conversation about access to clean water or food or human rights, your - misplaced - compassion for these poor impoverished SDK-less souls is just silly.
Compassion is never misplaced. Simply because this isn't a point of importance for you, it doesn't mean it couldn't change someone else's life.
@pHghost said:
You simply choose to ignore the fact that there is an imbalance in the world. All it can take is two computers in a classroom in Africa and a free to use bundle software (be it SDK or anything else) and it can change the course of someone's life.
@Socks said:
If these people don't get access to an SDK they are unlikely to die.
You see, it is you creating a straw man here, I never claimed they would die. Anywhere.
@The_Gamesalad_Guru said:
I've already produced the first video of a series making a simple brick breaker game. I expect the series to be done next week sometime. How's that for charity?
Not good enough, you must also provide basic accounts for at least 100 people and get 10 others to do the same, we then can start a chain reaction.
Of course it can be, if I have compassion for a someone because I feel they are short of food (when they are simply on diet) then my compassion is misplaced - and a near endless other scenarios where compassion can be misplaced.
@pHghost said:
Simply because this isn't a point of importance for you, it doesn't mean it couldn't change someone else's life.
Straw man, quote where I (or anyone) has said compassion isn't of any importance.
@pHghost said:
You see, it is you creating a straw man here, I never claimed they would die. Anywhere.
You are missing the point of what a straw man argument is, I am not misrepresenting your argument, I am making my own point, I am not presenting that point as yours. Making a straw man argument is to suggest (or directly claim) something the other person has said something that they haven't said.
I am making the point that access to an SDK is not a matter of life or death, I am not saying you are suggesting that access to an SDK is (or is not) not a matter of life or death, notice how the sentence doesn't reference you at all, that's because it is not being attributed to you (in which case, if shown to be false, would be a straw man).
"If these people don't get access to an SDK they are unlikely to die"
Now take a look at your statements . . . look out for any form of 'so' (or more commonly 'so you are saying . . .') ending with a question mark suggesting that this is a presentation of the other person's argument . . .
"So all the efforts by tech companies and charities to get internet and computers to the poorest, to make better their chances and equal opportunity are misguided according to you?"
Even putting aside the unambiguous 'according to you?' (not not according to me, lol, it is you writing this stuff) you can see from the 'so' (and the final question mark) that it's being suggested that this claim is mine. Yet it's not, in fact I've expressed no opinion whatsoever on efforts by tech companies, charities, the poor, computers or equal opportunities or any of these things being misguided or not misguided . . . nothing ! Zero ! Zilch, nothing at all on any of that. Even without the 'according to you' (lol) it is still clearly a straw man argument.
Again, see it here:
"So just because something isn't a matter of life and death, it shouldn't be considered?"
Clearly the idea here is that this is something I've said or even suggested. And then we move onto the directly attributed stuff . . .
"Simply because this isn't a point of importance for you"
"You simply choose to ignore the fact that there is an imbalance in the world"
. . . even though, like all the other stuff, I've made zero mention of imbalance in the world, or imbalance at all, or even the world ! Nor have I made any mention that compassion "isn't a point of importance" for me . . . and so on, each of these clearly suggests (directly or indirectly) that you are attributing this stuff (your idea of an idealised opposition position you can easily demolish) to me.
Whereas this: "If these people don't get access to an SDK they are unlikely to die" is my statement, it is not attributed to you directly or indirectly, or in anyway at all (if it were it might read "So, if these people don't get access to an SDK they are going to die?") . . . ie. it's not a straw man argument.
. . . . . .
A straw man argument:
A: I like cars
B: So you are saying that you want the world to be polluted then ?
. . . . . .
Not a straw man argument:
A: I like cars
B: The world is just going to end up being polluted.
. . . . . . .
Also not a straw man argument:
A: I like cars
B: So you like cars then ?
. . . . . . .
@pHghost said:
Anyhow, as I stated, you decided to take the thing personally, your thing. It wasn't meant that way, and I would've mentioned usernames if I thought it to be necessary.
Pretty much the entire conversation surrounding the new pricing structure has been free of personal remarks until you initiated a needlessly personal element to the conversation, directly calling some members (me clearly amongst them given your references) as 'talking down to others', 'privileged', 'unabashed' in their 'self-righteousness', 'ignorant' and so on . . . so in reality you (rather than anyone else) took a conversation that was focused on a largely technical issue and made it personal . . . even going so far as to admonish with "you know who you are" in an attempt to shame people.
And you feel it was me who decided to make this a personal issue ! Lol Honestly !?
@dgackey said:
but I'll be happy to answer questions about what this will mean moving forward, because that's where everyone's focused.
You got my attention. I didn't wan't to be rude in any way in the other thread, the rapid change just made me a little upset, thats all.
So what is the planning in short for gamesalad from this point? More money means more programmers, more programmers means faster bug fixes and getting new features faster?
Comments
To address a few assertions made in the original post:
I think you're conflating the swiftness with which the change was implemented and the perceived amount of "thought put into it". I can assure you there has been a great deal of thought put into the pricing model at GS. There have been ongoing conversations about it for literally years.
What I hear in this statement is that the implementation caught people by surprise, and that's certainly understandable, given that we're working on a much more tight loop of iteration, feedback, improvement, versus the old way of top-down grandiose release planning that took months to get something out the door.
It all depends on what you're comparing GS to. Many folks seem intent on comparing us to Unity or other high-end game engines that depend on big publisher site licenses and royalties from hit games to keep them afloat. I think we can all agree that this is not the core GS market.
So what is? As we've been saying quite a bit lately, it's folks who are hobbyists and those who want to learn how to make games. And in that context, what is GS? It's a tool that makes your life easier as a hobbyist game developer, and a platform/community that helps you learn how to make games.
Breaking this down a little further, there's actually a pretty strong move AWAY from F2P models with most SaaS (Software as a service) businesses. People don't mind paying for products that offer them a decent value, but want to be fairly billed and want to make sure they can try first and cancel at any time. That's exactly what we're offering here -- a game development tool that makes your life easier, is affordable, and doesn't lock you into any long-term commitment.
Finally, our new commitment towards education and really helping people actually learn how to develop games is a critical one, and you'll note that there have actually been an explosion of these kinds of businesses over the past few years. While some are free, the vast majority are not -- again, people will pay for good quality content, and expect that "you get what you pay for".
Think of GS in those terms -- a membership site that helps you learn how to develop games via a large selection of tutorials, sample assets, and a supportive community, with the added bonus of giving you access to a proprietary tool that is designed to work with the content and supports you along the journey to becoming a successful indie developer. Is that worth paying monthly for?
Our belief is yes. In fact, there are a nontrivial number of companies who charge their users a monthly fee for game design education and have sustained their businesses using this model that actually depend on the free version of GameSalad, so we know there's a market. And why not go to the source?
For all intents and purposes, that's been tried - or at least an ad-crippled iOS publishing variant of this idea. It's not sustainable.
We're not looking to slap anyone in the face. But also bear in mind that GS is not marketing to children (we still prohibit children under the age of 13 from registering accounts per the EULA) and we do have a VERY affordable institutional licensing program, so there is almost no reason why any school couldn't afford GS if they wanted to.
Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com
The challenge with free-to-use and pay-to-publish is that most users would use the free version to make their game and then only subscribe the month they publish or update their games. If there was a way to avoid this issue it may be possible to create a free version.
@ viking I talked about this in a different thread. 2 different programs, one to learn the basics and is locked & limited, and when you want to go Pro you get a different, full version. The full version would cause you to learn the other half of things while you pay
Nonsense
they are unambiguously straw man arguments - you cannot quote anyone who has said anything even remotely like your suggestions because no one has said anything even remotely close to your suggestions.
You selfish, privileged, unabashed, self-righteous and ignorant son of a b*tch ! How dare you, who do you think you are looking down on others like this.
I personally think this is the wrong way to go. I don't think it's a good business decision.
It's a short sighted decision based on what their software CURRENTLY does and how it CURRENTLY works.
I can't think of a single company where they have reduced the value given to their fans/customers and it's turned out well.
While I understand the need to make money, I think there could have been a better way to do it.
15 days is really an awfully short time period to get to learn and really decide if you want to use GameSalad. Perhaps if you're targeting young kids with lots of excess time, but then you're going after the wrong market since they don't really have money.
You're target audience are older teens and adults. That means, especially with adults, that people have busy schedules and they may work on it, say on the weekends. That gives them what... maybe 4-5 hours for Friday, Saturday, Sunday... and the same for the next weekend. That's 24-30 hours of watching tutorials, playing around, etc. to learn it, then come up to the forums to ask questions, wait for answers, etc.
I think 15 days is a very arbitrary and not a very well thought out number when you consider how people ACTUALLY use your software.
Remember, you're not talking about die hard game designers at this point, you're talking about POTENTIAL game designers who haven't fully committed.
I recommend that you change that to more like 30-60 days trial but with NO PUBLISHING. So, they can create and play around with GameSalad and watch their game in the previewer, but not publish it - even to the arcade. In this way, you give people the ability to actually LEARN GameSalad and build a few games but when they want to publish it, they have to upgrade.
I also recommend starting an affiliate program and start getting your loyal people working for you and giving them incentives to get people to you. Give them 10% of the referral's purchases. You'd be surprised how hard people will work for a little extra.
While it's "money out of your pocket", I have rarely seen an affiliate program that didn't result in increased sales and visibility - two things GameSalad needs.
I've been an internet marketer for years, so if you need any advice in this area, I'm happy to talk with someone about it.
@Socks Sorry, but I'm not interested in a conversation with someone who stoops down to belittling language and sarcasm instead of real arguments to support their case and have a constructive conversation. We've had many exchanges in the past and I've always respected you and your opinions (both where we agreed and disagreed), but this is truly absurd.
@The_Gamesalad_Guru Good to hear! I always enjoy your contributions to the community and hope you stay for a long time to come!
@ookami007 I agree about the trial length, specifically because for most users that trial will probably end up as a 4 day trial - two weekends. My suggestion is to make it 15 days, only counting days where you actually boot up the software. That makes it much more likely people will actually get a 15 day trial.
Contact me for custom work - Expert GS developer with 15 years of GS experience - Skype: armelline.support
This is exactly the next problem to solve for us. We need to ensure you can find success in game making in a matter of hours, not days. My goal for the group is to get folks up and running making a successful game in an hour or less. Sure, it'll be a basic game, but getting folks success quickly is critical.
You can already follow along at http://learn.gamesalad.com and build your first game in about an hour. And we're just getting started.
Very cool! Looking forward to that!
Thanks for your whole response, it explains quite a bit of what was missing from the other thread.
Of course, if this is currently the only viable way forward, it must be done. Nobody here wants GameSalad to die. If it goes tummy up financially, then it's game over for everyone, since you need to go through the sever to publish etc.
I still think there is a hole here, and for some this approach might be a considerable obstacle, but as long as you are aware of it, I trust you'll try to make the best decisions possible.
Seriously ! 'Belittling' ? Lol
You have labelled me (and others) as being unabashed, of being self-righteousness, of talking down to people, of being privileged, of lacking concern for the vulnerable and dispossessed of this world, of being ignorant . . . and so on . . . (insult after insult) and it's you who feels slighted by this conversation !
Lol
Guilty as charged, although I would say in my defence sarcasm doesn't quite have the same sting here in the UK as it does in other English speaking nations, over here it's more akin to humour or playful teasing, elsewhere it's often seen as aggressive or confrontational - but regardless, guilty as charged, I'm often sarcastic !
Complete nonsense, I've tried to engage you in conversation and you've run away, very simply because you cannot support your ridiculous idea that describing the new pricing scheme as relatively affordable is some kind of attack on the vulnerable of this word !
Absolutely ! Your initial notion was absurd, and has been made all the more absurd by your straw man arguments and inability (or unwillingness) to support your claims.
@Armelline - that's a good idea too, but I'm worried that opening it for a few minutes would kill one of your days. Maybe measure it in actual hours used? Of course, if the person walks away or leaves it on then their hours run out.
I'm sure there got to be a better way. I'm just worried about people trying it out and giving up when the time runs out.
@CodeWizard - You're thinking like a programmer.
Think like a customer. You don't want to just create ANY game. You want to create YOUR game. The game that's been bouncing around your head for however long.
That's why you need a longer period... draw them in, let them learn and then start on THEIR game. That's when you get them hooked...
@ookami007
As @CodeWizard has already stated, the length of the trial period is not set in stone and we'll revisit if necessary based on what the data tells us.
The other suggestions you (and others) have mentioned are well-appreciated, but do not, unfortunately, move the needle in our case.
We were doing F2P long before it was cool
Fans and customers are two different things, and we're absolutely not saying that we're reducing the value we're providing to customers -- if anything, that is going to increase. I think this explains why so many existing PROs are happy with the announcement.
Fans and what people can expect for free is obviously a different discussion -- certainly nobody likes it when they have to pay for something that they once perceived as free.
However, this also assumes a lot about the average GS customer, where they come from, and what their expectations are.
I think most of us would agree that if a new company sprung up tomorrow with the promise of helping you learn how to make games through tutorials and a tool that worked the way GS did, and that company had a free trial, a buzzing community, and a group of fairly veteran users who had made really great stuff with the tool, a lot of people would find that worth paying for, wouldn't you?
The delta here is in the expectation of the longtime GS free user, who sees the value of the product in a totally different context.
Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com
I'm already on it. Part 1 is cooking on Youtube as I write this. My goal is in one Saturday afternoon you can download creator follow along and have a game built and a solid understanding of Creator software before Dinner.
Guru Video Channel | Lost Oasis Games | FRYING BACON STUDIOS
@Socks
I don't feel slighted in the least. Where did that come from? Yes, I called you, myself and others here privileged, because we are, by nature of where we were born or where we live. If you see that as a straw man argument and need me to bring out some statistics about the distribution of wealth in the world, you really should pull your head out from the sand.
Yes, I called out self-righteousness and talking down because assumptions were readily made about others based on the inherent privilege some of us have, taking it as something that is shared by all.
You aren't making much sense here. My initial notion was simple: having one paid version with publishing and a free one without any publishing. You yourself agreed with that idea and said you wanted the same.
I used very specific examples of companies that went this way and what I thought was the key to their success.
I made a side comment at the very end of it, calling out an attitude I felt in the main thread. It was just a small comment at the end of several paragraphs. You took that personally and now seem to be claiming that was my whole initial notion. If anyone constructed a straw man here, it definitely wasn't me.
My posts in this thread are aimed you, I am having a conversation with you, you have said my comments are belittling . . .
_Socks Sorry, but I'm not interested in a conversation with someone who stoops down to belittling language _
. . . notice how when asked to support my claims I am happy to do so, I'm even able to quote what you said rather than making stuff up and attributing it to you.
You should really only speak for yourself, if you consider yourself privileged then I'm happy for you, but you really are in no position to tell me (or others) whether we are privileged or not without really knowing anything about our lives.
Another straw man, another insult ! Lol
I'm not sure you understand what a straw man is, the whole point is that you are constructing arguments in your head that no one has made, and then either indirectly or directly attributing to others, so you can then easily demolish them (hence a straw man, easy to push over ) - so when someone points out that you've straw manned them and you respond with some form of 'I can offer proof to support the argument' you are missing the point !
Bring out all the statistics you want on the distribution of wealth in the world, draw charts if you want, maybe do it all in the form of interpretive dance and mime, but none of it would be in anyway relevant because no one, certainly not me, has made any arguments that argue for or against any of these claims . . . . you are - literally - arguing against a position you yourself have conjured up in your mind, attempts to get you to quote where I have said any of this are avoided.
A: "I think cars should be made cheaper"
B: "Oh, so car factory workers, who rely on sales figures to stay employed, should starve to death, you ignorant, self-righteous bastard, looking down on everyone from your position of privilege ! Do you know it only takes a 17% reduction in pay for the lowest paid workers to push them over the poverty line, and do you know that the suicide rate amongst those in poverty is nearly 16 times the national average . . . (etc etc)"
A: "I didn't say any of that ! That's a straw man argument, could you show me where I have argued for any of that"
B: "No! I'm not talking to you because your horrible to me, you privileged, ignorant, self-righteous bastard"
A: "Honestly, you are just erecting silly straw man arguments"
B: "Oh, really, well if you want I can bring out some statistics showing the suicide rates amongst those in poverty . . "
. . .etc etc
You can say that again !
You guys would turn game salad into Greece..lol
Guru Video Channel | Lost Oasis Games | FRYING BACON STUDIOS
I had no idea, so thanks for explaining. Really.
http://jamie-cross.net/posts/ ✮ Udemy: Introduction to Mobile Games Development ✮ Learn Mobile Game Development in One Day Using Gamesalad ✮ My Patreon Page
AUSTERITY NOW
This is truly great news I always felt the lack of really good quality documentation and learning resources direct from them that knew all the facts was a problem, some of the finer details have always felt a bit reverse engineered.
Yeah, basically you construct a 'straw man' (an argument that is comically easy to push over, like a man made of straw) and you attribute it to the person you are debating/arguing with - usually as a replacement for his actual argument - you then set about knocking down 'his' argument, or more often than not the act of attribution is enough to poison the well.
A: "I hate hospitals"
B: "Oh, so you think we should get rid of hospitals so only the very wealthy can have access to private doctors in small private clinics, so they end up being treated like royalty while the poor suffer and die without access to medical care !!"
So A's position has been caricatured as something so awful that pretty much everyone would agree is wrong, B will find it easy to then attack this caricatured position (that he, B, has in fact made up).
. . . . . . .
EDIT - an actual argument comes to mind, one that actually happened, and illustrates a straw man even better . . . it went something like this:
A: "When I was a kid we used to play out doors a lot more, these days kids don't go out as much, instead they play a lot of video games and watch a load of TV . . . "
B: "Oh, so you want kids to be running around in the traffic all hours of the day and night, skateboarding up and down the sidewalk, causing all the usual trouble that kids cause, for what ? So you can avoid your responsibility as a parent . . . "
So A is being asked to defend the indefensible, he's been asked to defend his desire to see kids 'running around in the traffic' (and so on), even though he's not made that claim at all - B has constructed a version of A's argument that is trivially easy to argue against.
Keep in mind, I am a pro user and you already have my money. I just renewed my second year of PRO and I have no problem paying for a worthwhile product - which I feel GameSalad is.
That said, you are correct. Customers and fans are two different things and you get two different types of value from each.
A customer gives your DIRECT compensation. They buy your product and you benefit directly from your relationship with them.
A FAN is a person who loves your product and does things like create video tutorials, posts about it, etc. While a customer can be a fan as well, they may not be. They may just be a customer... the buy the product, do their think but don't really give back or expand the community. Unlike customers, you benefit INDIRECTLY from fans by increased exposure which leads to increased sales.
Obviously, you need to do what you need to do to survive, but just don't turn on your fans, just because they aren't customers. I've seen that happen... it has NEVER worked out for any company that's done it.
I really like GameSalad, so I'm just giving my observations of being in the software/programming industry for the last 30+ years.
Actually, I'm not quite so sure I'd agree with you. As someone who has been an internet marketer for some time, I know that OFFERS are a dime a dozen and rarely deliver. I've actually seen that VERY same offer multiple times from different companies with very limited products over the last year. Luckily, coming from a mobile development and programming background, I recognized that they were very limited and wouldn't suit my purposes.
Most users are used to crazy offers (from free software to enlarging parts of their anatomy) on the internet. So one more offer isn't necessarily going to impress. That's why I recommended a longer time to allow them to get hooked.
Besides... you're NOT a new company. You're an existing company and offered one thing... and now, offer something less. Just keep that in mind. At the end of the day, users will have LESS functionality than they did two weeks ago if they are a free user.
No matter how you spin it, that is the case. You had an unlimited free trial, now you don't. That's removing value and alienating some of your FANS, if not your CUSTOMERS.
You alienate your FANS at your own peril.
Again, you have my money. You'll continue to get my money as long as you as provide a great product. I just think you went a little too far with these changes... especially without offering the long time users a better path to upgrade.
I think maybe announcing this and then offering users who have been with you for more than 12 months a 10-20% discount (for a limited time!) to upgrade would have been FAR better. Especially the limited time... it creates both scarcity and urgency.
@ookami007
I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying. For reference, I've been making games and working with online communities (almost) since shortly after the web became a thing, so I know what you're referring to. We'll just have to see how it goes.
I do take a bit of an issue with saying we're spinning anything -- @CodeWizard and I have both been pretty blunt and as transparent as legally allowable since arriving here, and that includes having the intestinal fortitude to say things that weren't going to be popular or well received but were necessary. That hasn't changed
We've done enough research on the market and our customers to feel comfortable with this direction and it's the one we're taking right now, so I won't be participating in many more debates about why or what we could have or should have done instead, but I'll be happy to answer questions about what this will mean moving forward, because that's where everyone's focused.
Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com
For your reference then, @Socks
I expect any kid to find a way...really...
.
Compassion is never misplaced. Simply because this isn't a point of importance for you, it doesn't mean it couldn't change someone else's life.
You see, it is you creating a straw man here, I never claimed they would die. Anywhere.
Not good enough, you must also provide basic accounts for at least 100 people and get 10 others to do the same, we then can start a chain reaction.
Fortuna Infortuna Forti Una
It's not clear what point you are making here, just quoting a bunch of stuff without explaining why doesn't really argue for anything.
Of course it can be, if I have compassion for a someone because I feel they are short of food (when they are simply on diet) then my compassion is misplaced - and a near endless other scenarios where compassion can be misplaced.
Straw man, quote where I (or anyone) has said compassion isn't of any importance.
You are missing the point of what a straw man argument is, I am not misrepresenting your argument, I am making my own point, I am not presenting that point as yours. Making a straw man argument is to suggest (or directly claim) something the other person has said something that they haven't said.
I am making the point that access to an SDK is not a matter of life or death, I am not saying you are suggesting that access to an SDK is (or is not) not a matter of life or death, notice how the sentence doesn't reference you at all, that's because it is not being attributed to you (in which case, if shown to be false, would be a straw man).
"If these people don't get access to an SDK they are unlikely to die"
Now take a look at your statements . . . look out for any form of 'so' (or more commonly 'so you are saying . . .') ending with a question mark suggesting that this is a presentation of the other person's argument . . .
"So all the efforts by tech companies and charities to get internet and computers to the poorest, to make better their chances and equal opportunity are misguided according to you?"
Even putting aside the unambiguous 'according to you?' (not not according to me, lol, it is you writing this stuff) you can see from the 'so' (and the final question mark) that it's being suggested that this claim is mine. Yet it's not, in fact I've expressed no opinion whatsoever on efforts by tech companies, charities, the poor, computers or equal opportunities or any of these things being misguided or not misguided . . . nothing ! Zero ! Zilch, nothing at all on any of that. Even without the 'according to you' (lol) it is still clearly a straw man argument.
Again, see it here:
"So just because something isn't a matter of life and death, it shouldn't be considered?"
Clearly the idea here is that this is something I've said or even suggested. And then we move onto the directly attributed stuff . . .
"Simply because this isn't a point of importance for you"
"You simply choose to ignore the fact that there is an imbalance in the world"
. . . even though, like all the other stuff, I've made zero mention of imbalance in the world, or imbalance at all, or even the world ! Nor have I made any mention that compassion "isn't a point of importance" for me . . . and so on, each of these clearly suggests (directly or indirectly) that you are attributing this stuff (your idea of an idealised opposition position you can easily demolish) to me.
Whereas this: "If these people don't get access to an SDK they are unlikely to die" is my statement, it is not attributed to you directly or indirectly, or in anyway at all (if it were it might read "So, if these people don't get access to an SDK they are going to die?") . . . ie. it's not a straw man argument.
. . . . . .
A straw man argument:
A: I like cars
B: So you are saying that you want the world to be polluted then ?
. . . . . .
Not a straw man argument:
A: I like cars
B: The world is just going to end up being polluted.
. . . . . . .
Also not a straw man argument:
A: I like cars
B: So you like cars then ?
. . . . . . .
Pretty much the entire conversation surrounding the new pricing structure has been free of personal remarks until you initiated a needlessly personal element to the conversation, directly calling some members (me clearly amongst them given your references) as 'talking down to others', 'privileged', 'unabashed' in their 'self-righteousness', 'ignorant' and so on . . . so in reality you (rather than anyone else) took a conversation that was focused on a largely technical issue and made it personal . . . even going so far as to admonish with "you know who you are" in an attempt to shame people.
And you feel it was me who decided to make this a personal issue ! Lol
Honestly !?
You got my attention. I didn't wan't to be rude in any way in the other thread, the rapid change just made me a little upset, thats all.
So what is the planning in short for gamesalad from this point? More money means more programmers, more programmers means faster bug fixes and getting new features faster?