Taking my toys and going home

Armelline

I have recently been informed by a moderator that I must not post any further threads providing free demos or templates. Apparently they all have to be kept inside a single thread, which can be updated as needed.

I'm afraid I believe this rule to be prohibitive to sharing, the community and counter to common sense. It specifically places an unnecessary obstacle in the way of both self-motivated and genuinely free gifting of ideas and examples. I honestly believe the only reason these rules exist is that GameSalad want a monopoly on templates to drive as much cash-flow to their marketplace as possible and the (deeply unpopular) forum rules they have implemented to achieve that stifle creativity and dampen the (increasingly less) thriving community spirit. And that's all before even considering the frankly mind-boggling inconsistency with which rules are enforced. (Some people are, literally in this case, above the rules.)

Did anyone actually care that the new DBA competition was in order to promote their website? Or that some guy just posted a free template to encourage you to download their game? Was the advertising of 3rd party tools or services really offending anyone here?

I'm not going to make demos for them to rot and fester at the tail end of some long forgotten thread, the latest posts only seen by the most dedicated forum members. I'll find another way to freely share the things I make. Ironically, it will almost certainly be one of the 3rd party sites GameSalad fears so much.

I'm sorry it has come to this. I strongly disagreed with the new rules prohibiting 3rd party sites but it never occurred to me that those rules would have such a horrendously negative impact on my ability to share freely with the community.

Sadly GameSalad seem set on preventing any visible and open sharing (it might, after all, be motivated by a desire to use GameSalad to make money - God forbid).

Look out for my examples and demos on a THIRD PARTY site in the future. Giving directly to the community isn't allowed in a way I feel is worthwhile.

UtopianGames

Yeah apparently thats the new rule ala one thread but its better than nothing.

We couldn't post about our latest DBA competition to win a GS Pro License because of forum rules so a lot of people missed out

My free template post below has been sunk by a mod so even if i add stuff to it (like i did yesterday) it won't rise and be seen.

http://forums.gamesalad.com/discussion/52400/50-free-templates-and-tools#latest

Regarding the GSMarketplace...they have a 500k mailing list they just sit on and do nothing with so its certainly not money they need otherwise they would send out regular emails and promote the marketplace, it also sucks as its too hard to find anything so it not only needs a big overhaul it needs marketing properly.

I've had lots of run ins with Mods over the new rules and was even banned at one point not long ago.

I don't offer help on here anymore because i disagree with some of the rules and they way some of the mods are ruining...sorry i meant running the forum.

I personally think they get a buzz from bringing down the hammer and playing the big guy.

Darren.

Armelline

@DeepBlueApps said:
Yeah apparently thats the new rule ala one thread but its better than nothing.

We couldn't post about our latest DBA competition to win a GS Pro License because of forum rules so a lot of people missed out.

My free template post below has been sunk by a mod so even if i add stuff to it (like i did yesterday) it won't rise and be seen.

http://forums.gamesalad.com/discussion/52400/50-free-templates-and-tools#latest

That's not just absurd, that's actually selectively penalising you and denying a great resource to the whole community.

I disagree that it's better than nothing. It acts effectively as a kind of constructive dismissal. The message is "You can make free stuff but don't expect anyone to see it. We don't want people seeing free stuff, lordy lordy no."

I don't offer help on here anymore because i disagree with some of the rules and they way some of the mods are ruining...sorry i meant running the forum.

It's sad that so many veteran members are feeling that way now. I've been on these forums for over five years and I've never despaired for them like I do now. The rules intended to protect the community from unsavoury characters are instead being used to limit expressed and show favouritism.

I personally think they get a buzz from bringing down the hammer and playing the big guy.

Having run and moderated forums in the past, I wouldn't jump too quickly to that conclusion. It's not an easy job. I think the real mistake they made was in re-writing the rules with literally 0 community input.

Overall, I think my second to last paragraph really highlights the utter absurdity of this situation.

it might, after all, be motivated by a desire to use GameSalad to make money - God forbid

gingagaming

Yet another sad story and loss to the community...

Socks

@Armelline said:
I have recently been informed by a moderator that I must not post any further threads providing free demos or templates. Apparently they all have to be kept inside a single thread, which can be updated as needed.

Yep, this is ridiculous, there doesn't seem to be any reasoning behind it, it comes across as an arbitrary use of power, I've always thought these forums were over-moderated but this seems pointless.

When I've got something I think might be useful to others (beyond smaller ideas which I post in 'Spare Code’) I'll post a thread about it, I've done this with things like the ideas for a Fast Frame Swap, Anaglyphic effects, GS Lens Flares, In-Game Colour Selection Wheel, Link Machine and so on . . . the idea being that discussions, questions and improvements on that idea would naturally take place in the relevant thread - but if all these were forced to be lumped together in one thread it would end up a jumbled mess, with questions on how to get the In-Game Colour Selection Wheel to work full screen lost on page 16 of a conversation on the best way to set the Fast Frame Swap up for multiple animations - which itself is interwoven with another unrelated conversation discussing an issue with using the Link Machine template - which would basically defeat the thread structure of a forum, to separate conversations and discussions into their relevant threads.

Over-moderation can be worse that no moderation, you end up with this sort of thing (an actual example):

User posts a question that has come up before.

M: Please search to see if this question has already been discussed before starting a new thread on the same subject.

User finds old thread, posts question.

M: Please do not resurrect 2 year old threads, I'm closing this one.

Was any reason given for this new edict ?

Armelline

@gingagaming said:
Yet another sad story and loss to the community...

Don't worry ginga, I'm not going anywhere - I'll still be helping out answering questions. I'll just be keeping my new experiments to myself (like the one-placed-actor instant custom font demo I made last night that I was excited to share).

Socks

@DeepBlueApps said:

I've had lots of run ins with Mods over the new rules and was even banned at one point not long ago.

I don't offer help on here anymore because i disagree with some of the rules and they way some of the mods are ruining...sorry i meant running the forum.

I personally think they get a buzz from bringing down the hammer and playing the big guy.

Darren.

Give someone a hammer and they will eventually find something to hit with it, I was also banned for months for no particular reason.

Armelline

@Socks said:
Was any reason given for this new edict ?

The only explanation I was given was something vague about abuse of the system before the new rule. Essentially, they didn't like people like Darren posting new threads that - while providing something entirely free - drew attention to their 3rd party sites.

M: Please do not resurrect 2 year old threads, I'm closing this one.

This one has always seemed utterly, utterly bizarre to me. This is the only forum I know of that actively tells you to create a new thread when there is an existing one that covers the same issue. And, as you note, also tells you to search before posting and to reduce redundant threads. Baffling.

Additionally, I regularly see favoured users and moderators skirt the edges of the rules. For example, there are multiple posts breaking this one, which has been very selectively enforced.

3. USE DESCRIPTIVE TITLES. - Thread titles should be clear and specific and should avoid the use of “Help!!!,” “Pleeeeease!!!, ALL CAPS, and symbols that draw attention to a title.

The rule regarding third-party sites is super-vague:

Third-party sites may not be advertised on the forums except as follows:

I can't see any way this can't be interpreted as including personal web sites, particularly if they include templates or services related to GameSalad, yet some people provide such links with impunity.

ycan

Totally agreed, you are right.

CodeCell

It is a shame it has come to this when the forums use to be so good, even as little as a year ago.

Armelline

I feel like a rabble-rouser this morning but this really, really got my goat and all the things I've been holding back on saying are going to come out now

And that's before I even get on to the infuriating way the smilie system constantly tries to make me do this one:

Socks

@Armelline said:
The only explanation I was given was something vague about abuse of the system before the new rule. Essentially, they didn't like people like Darren posting new threads that - while providing something entirely free - drew attention to their 3rd party sites.

’Moderate' actually means something, and it's not synonymous with 'enforce', the idea is (or was) to measure and decide rather than enforce, but often moderators simply enforce the codified rules of a forum rather than moderate - so you end up with situations like this where someone falls foul of a rule designed to deal with something entirely different.

@Armelline said:
This one has always seemed utterly, utterly bizarre to me. This is the only forum I know of that actively tells you to create a new thread when there is an existing one that covers the same issue. And, as you note, also tells you to search before posting and to reduce redundant threads. Baffling

Yep, there are lots of arbitrary rules that I suspect are enforced simply because the person enforcing them has the power to do so, not to say anyone is a megalomaniac, drunk on the terrible power of forum moderation (insert evil laughter + medium to large reverb) just that decisions can become capricious or whimsical, and sometimes contradictory (please don't start new threads on discussions that have taken place in the past / please don't resurrect threads from the past) - and how long is it before a thread becomes off limits ? 6 months, a year, two years ?

Another seemingly pointless rule I've fallen foul of is going 'off topic', if someone starts a thread on game colour palettes - and over time it evolves into a conversation on Photoshop then that seems perfectly valid to me - conversations develop naturally - if there is an appetite for a conversation on Photoshop, and 4 or 5 people are talking about it, then I can see no reason to not let it continue - but on occasion this kind of thing has been ruled 'off topic' and the conversation has been stopped, which, again, I think is pointless over-moderation.

Armelline

@Socks said:
Another seemingly pointless rule I've fallen foul of is going 'off topic', if someone starts a thread on game colour palettes - and over time it evolves into a conversation on Photoshop then that seems perfectly valid to me - conversations develop naturally - if there is an appetite for a conversation on Photoshop, and 4 or 5 people are talking about it, then I can see no reason to not let it continue - but on occasion this kind of thing has been ruled 'off topic' and the conversation has been stopped, which, again, I think is pointless over-moderation.

Dude, the two of us are horrendous for going completely off-topic. I've no doubt that on occasion that rule has been overzealously enforced, but if there's one rule we're both unquestionably guilty of breaking it's that one. :P

(As are numerous moderators and favoured users, though.)

UtopianGames

I used to provide links to free DBA templates for help threads (if we had anything that could help) but it got banned under the new rules although i was told to PM the user direct which i found absurd as it meant only one user would benefit when other users might have a look at the thread also seeking help on the subject matter.

Darren.

Socks

@Armelline said:
Dude, the two of us are horrendous for going completely off-topic

Don't know what you mean.

The last 5 minutes of the USA vs Belgium games was pretty tense stuff.

Armelline

@Socks said:
The last 5 minutes of the USA vs Belgium games was pretty tense stuff.

I don't watch football. But reddit is full of bro-love for the USA goalkeeper this morning so I'm guessing he did good.

Edit: Removed link to reddit as it's a third-party site.

@DeepBlueApps said:
I used to provide links to free DBA templates for help threads (if we had anything that could help) but it got banned under the new rules although i was told to PM the user direct which i found absurd as it meant only one user would benefit when other users might have a look at the thread also seeking help on the subject matter see the link and also be helped out.

I still think there's a space for a third-party forum dedicated to GameSalad. Despite what GameSalad appear to think, competition leads to innovation.

Socks

Possible solution, every forum member has their own thread, just one thread that they - and only they - are allowed to post in, they are not allowed to post anywhere else, the user must never mention GameSalad or game making in general, and must make no reference to other users, or make mention of other threads, and they must ensure that they stay on topic at all times, deviations will result in the thread being closed and the user being excommunicated.

Socks

@Armelline said:
Edit: Removed link to reddit as it's a third-party site

Lol

Armelline

@Socks said:
Possible solution, every forum member has their own thread, just one thread that they - and only they - are allowed to post in, they are not allowed to post anywhere else, the user must never mention GameSalad or game making in general, and must make no reference to other users, or make mention of other threads, and they must ensure that they stay on topic at all times, deviations will result in the thread being closed and the user being excommunicated.

My God I think you've cracked it.

Socks

P.S.

The AppStore is a third party site . . . could cause issues . . .

Armelline

@Socks said:
P.S.

The AppStore is a third party site . . . could cause issues . . .

STOP UNRAVELLING THE RULES YOU ANARCHIST!

Wboko

@Armelline said:
STOP UNRAVELLING THE RULES YOU ANARCHIST!

@Socks‌ IS ANARCHIST??

However, that would explain a lot...

jigglybean

Time to change the rules I think.

jamie_c

Shame, I'll miss your contributions but hope to still see you around on other sites.

Lots of veterans are leaving the forums or at least spending a lot less time here, which in my opinion does no good for Gamesalad. They are loosing a lot of volunteer help that would have happily helped and advised new users. Now often times new users questions languish in the forums with no answers. In the long run I'm afraid Gamesalad is shooting itself in the foot...

Armelline

@jamie_c said:
Shame, I'll miss your contributions but hope to still see you around on other sites.

I'll definitely not be leaving the site or stopping answering questions, I'm just going to be drastically cutting back on the resources I make/make available. I still love GameSalad, there just doesn't seem to be a way for me to contribute free resources to the forums that is satisfactory to both me and the moderators.

beefy_clyro

Wow! I hadn't noticed this rule! What are they smoking over there at mods hq? Theres a reason that the majority of the best and most experienced coders no longer post … I used to love coming on here and everyone sharing ideas, working together, posting cool stuff that was easy to find and was genuinely chuffed and excited to try and help out others …. You've killed that!

gamestudent

I just started here, they can't kill it before I've had a chance to do something, can they? What if some mod comes and removes this thread? I've seen similar things happen. I love what @beefy_clyro‌ said about what the community used to be, it sounds awesome. I believed that GameSalad genuinely wanted to help people make games. I think that they still do, but if all you guys say is true, then they need to show it to us, right?

gyroscope

Can I just mention here that whatever the rights and wrongs, agreements or disagreements, Moderators aren't a "one-force army".

We are all individuals, who GameSalad invited to moderate the Forums (and not to control, of course) - all at different times ; and because of certain recent (all-encompassing, some strict, most made more "watertight") rules concerning all Forums members, authored and produced mainly by 2 people, it doesn't necessarily mean that every other moderator agrees with every single rule. That needed to be said, I think.

To add, to continue as "healthy" posts in this thread, it's not helpful (or correct) to mention, assume or insinuate there's a case of "them and us" when it comes to mods and non-mods.... everyone should be regarded on an individual basis, m or no m...

Thought I'd mention that....

colander

I have only been here just under a year and don't sell any third party products but if it is causing this much ill will maybe someone should have another look at it. @CodeWizard

CodeCell

@gyroscope said:
Can I just mention here that whatever the rights and wrongs, agreements or disagreements, Moderators aren't a "one-force army".

We are all individuals, who GameSalad invited to moderate the Forums (and not to control, of course) - all at different times ; and because of certain recent (all-encompassing, some strict, most made more "watertight") rules concerning all Forums members, authored and produced mainly by 2 people, it doesn't necessarily mean that every other moderator agrees with every single rule. That needed to be said, I think.

To add, to continue as "healthy" posts in this thread, it's not helpful (or correct) to mention, assume or insinuate there's a case of "them and us" when it comes to mods and non-mods.... everyone should be regarded on an individual basis, m or no m...

Thought I'd mention that....

Comment removed due to disrespectful content.

colander

@CodeCell when you make your dislike of the rules and other peoples comments so personal and dramatic the other side tends to dig their heels in and may even return in kind and nothing changes. State your case but keep statements like

Shame on you!

and

Gamesalad was known for its community, and you just threw that all away because you all wanted more power and control

out of it.

I am mindful GameSalad has a business to run but if in doing so it alienates it customers then it needs to at the very least fully explain why it is doing so and try to get people on board with it or compromise to some degree.