@Portyman I disagree if I was working for GS and no one was complaining I would run to my user database to see if I had any users. So many users come and go without saying anything which would leave me scratching my head wondering why.
All feed back is valuable no matter how trivial or outlandish some of it may be as long as it is not rude, offensive, etc. Look at the bug fix list for example that will help GS a lot and it wouldn't of happened without user complaints. When this is implemented people like Socks, myself and others will more likely report bugs instead of thinking someone else has probably already done it or screw it they never respond so why bother.
This means more bugs will get fixed as they occur instead of persisting and maybe causing bigger problems further along the development path. This is one of the biggest reasons GS is so buggy.
I only wrote this because I am waiting for the server to come back online so I can publish. GS any idea when it will be back up?
@colander I am not currently seeing issues with our publishing infrastructure and other users are able to publish. I've gone through our logs as well to identify problems, if any. I see that you're currently able to reach our publishing server without an issue and your projects have been going through.
Please DM me with everything you're doing so we can attempt to reproduce the problem on our end.
@Chunkypixels I hear your frustration on the Creator interface improvements. It's not that the code was written by a crackpot genius -- although that would be fun! It's that we have four full time engineers and haven't made Creator improvements a priority yet. It's on our list and we will be getting to it.
Ok its on your list of things to do. Can you please in the least, promise to stop taking the Creator UI and moving it to the bottom of the to do list. Adding 3rd Parties features is just that. "Features". When GS focuses on features instead of stability. I picture a ford taurus that needs a new engine over haul, leaky radiator, bald tires, long crack in the wind shield, back passenger window out " fitted with plastic sheeting and duct tape". Being driven by a guy who just bought tints for the windows and a 1000$ radio system with dvd player, fluffy dice, tiger skin steering wheel cover.
We all know we've seen these cars on the road.
SO. can we at least please stop taking the creator ui issue and dropping it to the bottom of the list every time someone in the GS office finds a new 3rd party company that "MIGHT" peak our interest and cause a few people to go PRO.
I feel bad every time I see a response from codewizard responding to someone bashing gamesalad.
I feel bad every time I see a someone trying to stymie frank, honest and open discussion (I really do), it might be more pleasant if we all queue up to type 'awesome job, you guys are awesome', but that's not going to let GameSalad know the issues that are effecting their users, pleasant comments and back slapping are great if you want to feel good about what you're doing (even if you are drifting off course), but frank opinions and even criticism are what will do you the most good in the long term.
But, sure, there's a balance to be found, once the conversation is reasonably civil and no one is being personal or offensive then I can't see the issue.
You could extend the analogy to game making, I'd rather have a bunch of forum members telling me what they don't like about my game rather than post after post of 'awesome app, good luck on the app store' because they feel pointing out my poor design or clumsy coding might come over as critical or rude.
Don't worry too much @Portyman, gladly @Codewizard et al display the toughness of hide, patience and wit to take it. If he stops writing posts like his previous one then we should start to worry.
Generally there is humour and genuine concern behind the criticisms. If that ceases it will just get boring and destructive.
@Portyman, rarely are the complaints/frustrations aimed at particular staff members, most are aimed at GameSalad as a company. As long as it doesn't get personal then people should be able to openly criticise/let off steam when it feels like GameSalad's priorities are just plain weird most of the time.
tenrdrmerMember, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-ChefPosts: 9,934
edited November 2013
I can fully understand the we only have 4 guys and they are slammed at the moment argument. I really do. I can fully relate as I spend most if my days in that same boat.
But i'd like to share just small but if advise for your busy busy bees. Finish one task before moving to the next. I accomplish so much more in my day if I can keep from jumping between projects.
So how about you make a list if tasks and when someone starts a task they finish it before moving on.
I think I can speak for most everyone here. we would be a little less pissy about slow progress if there appeared to be a steady progress at all. We occasionally get a nightly build update that has been rolling out maybe weekly. And in many cases there's not much new in the update.
A perfect example is in 9 days between the last 2 nighty build the change log was Added buzz And a bug fix.
Well it's already be said by you guys buzz was just a line code that was easy to drop in so in reality 9 days accomplished a bug fix for a rotation issue. I mean I fully understand code is way freaking harder than drag n drop but 9 days and all that was accomplished is a bug fix? Surly you can appreciate our frustrations in that.
tenrdrmerMember, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-ChefPosts: 9,934
Oh and btw I'm still waiting for a stretch to fit option.
I'v been working to update my older stuff to iOS7 and its a freaking nightmare due to the bugs regarding camera settings and pause. It would sure be nice to have that feature finished since it was started and works great in the creator preview.
Also android screen detection issues makes it impossible to build a universal app for android so dang it's almost like that one feature that's already half done would be a huge benefit to the GameSalad user base.
I'd also like to offer some advice.... Always tie your shoe laces before crossing the road. Well, either that or go velcro.
On a different note, I actually think GS are really lucky to have such a dedicated community. Not sure it's all that common for customers to feel so involved with a software product/service they use.
And I also vote for more time allocated to creator improvements.
I say have more code days for @codewizard! <:-P After all he did build the engine for Draw Something. I'm sure he could add some nice improvements to creator...
I think part of the frustration with the UI comes from the fact that, not a lot has seemingly changed in 3 or 4 years.
Just having "standard" things like multi select, and locking/hiding of layers would make 99% of your users lives so much better on a day to day basis.
Me personally, I couldn't care less about a new ad revenue service, or a new platform I have no interest in (or to be fair, not enough knowledge about). But I know others do like these sort of things. I'd rather have functionality over new features (it seems like we were promised that 8 or 9 months ago, and things seemed to be moving in that direction...but now, I dunno.
What I do want...is a tool that helps me make the games I want to make. The games I have in my head, without being hindered by a clumsy UI. (I don't know if you have noticed, but doing anything slightly more complex than a simple game, isn't really a great user experience)
*I'm not having a go btw. Sounds like you guys are as slammed as ever getting things done
how easy would this be to implement? (I have asked a few times in the past, but never got anyone to discuss it)...
When I drag a new actor into a scene, I can't think of a time when I would EVER (and I mean...never ever!) need it to be within .xxxx decimal places of a pixel.
i.e. I drag a new actor into a scene. it gets placed at x=123.5879 y=492.8546 and then I have to open the actor, to get to it's x and y values to change them to 123 and 492 (and then maybe use the keyboard to shift them around in singles (or tens) from that point onwards.
That alone would save me hours, especially on more complex projects, with lots of layout stuff.
@Sparkyidr I would say because that is where it is dropped and the Creator would need a snap to grid feature to auto move it to a rounded pixel. Hopefully something we will have in the not to distant future.
I need x.xxxx pixels in my game because I have an actor rolling around an uneven surface and the ground actors need to line up precisely to look good and not interfere with the rolling actor.
When I drag a new actor into a scene, I can't think of a time when I would EVER (and I mean...never ever!) need it to be within .xxxx decimal places of a pixel.
Yep, this aspect of the UI crucifies me on a daily basis . . . . a workaround I now use is to make a kind of auto-snap-to-pixel system that automatically corrects the actor's position to the nearest whole pixel value at the start of the game, the following two Change Attribute rules places the actor on whole pixel values. (I'm guessing you know most of this already, but might be useful to someone with the same issue).
Change Attribute: self.Position.X to floor( self.Position.X ) Change Attribute: self.Position.Y to floor( self.Position.Y )
It can be easily adjusted to snap to multiples of pixel values too, the following will snap the actor to the nearest 10 pixel grid position (140 - 150 - 160 - 170 . . . etc)
Change Attribute: self.Position.X to floor( self.Position.X /10)*10 Change Attribute: self.Position.Y to floor( self.Position.Y /10)*10
You have to place these rules into every single actor which necessarily means you have dozens of extra rules, and it only works at run time, but it can save the time and trouble of having to open dozens and dozens of windows to delete the decimal places - with certain projects.
Now is not the time to be pointing out a " workaround ". When all attempts on GSs end have been tried. Then you can post work arounds. I'm tired of this. " oh there's a work around for that. Let's drop this issue to the bottom of the pile and focus on a new 3rd party ad service"
yes, multi object selection and snap to grid are really important to optimize the work, usually they are basic commands in all software; but one good news here is goodbye mobclix...
Codewizard lemme say that your level of disclosure and your great demeanor are rare in this business. So, thank you very much for that.
Many of the commenters are upset, because doing repetitive tasks can literally make you feel crazy. I wouldn't say to take any offense at all these comments. They're not personal at all! We are guinea pigs, whose behavioral data can point you to the areas of game salad that are the most difficult for users to deal with. We know that you hold the power to get rid of the craziness. So, tizen guy will be freed up in a few weeks and you get 25% of you're work force back. Engine guy and the two floaters seem to be making headway. Is there any way that you and the two floaters could have a creator week next week?!! Tizen guy can be left alone, and engine guy. Or something like that? You would have many adoring fans at the end of it! Whatever gets done is done, whatever isn't will have to wait for the next creator week. Then everyone goes back to their regular tasks that will probably take many more weeks or months to finish.
These are the comments of a humble game salad commenter... The time will have to be spent on creator at some point, if you could somehow do those hours sooner than other tasks, you will literally save users many hours of grunt work.
I think that we all underestimate the complexity of the task at hand. These guys are trying to keep up with the bugs old and newly created before even getting to the Creator itself. Then on top of that along comes Mavericks which stuffs it all up again. Throw in a few iOS updates and you are back to square one. I am sure they have made poor judgements and will continue to do so- sheesh I make them every day. I am glad I do not have a forum analysing my performance at work!
With the resource limitations this is just the reality of the wagon we are on. It 'aint going to change folks.
I would, correction, I have accepted the frustrations of Creator over the imperative need to have the software work with the lasted iOS upgrade and now a major shift in the computer OS. We will all (except PC people) be upgrading to Mavericks before we know it and I think the complaints of that not working with GS would outweigh complaints about the Creator.
I hope I do not sound like some Chicken Little, GS fanboy, teachers pet and I could be wrong. Back to making apps.
Then on top of that along comes Mavericks which stuffs it all up again. Throw in a few iOS updates and you are back to square one.
Mavericks Smavericks . . . OS updates will happen, they happen all the time, they happened in 2009, in 2010, in 2011, in 2012, in 2013 and they will happen in 2014 as well, the logic here suggests GS will always be under pressure, will always be subject to the flux of evolving OS platforms, will always have a legitimate reason to let their core product stagnate. Apple won't halt their product development to give GameSalad breathing space to work on Creator.
A play:
Sometime in 2010
User: "Hey GS, any chance of being able to drag select objects in Creator?" GS: "sorry guys, we're working on Snow Leopard compatibility . . . "
Sometime in 2011
User: "Hey GS, any chance of being able to drag select objects in Creator?" GS: "sorry guys, we're working on Lion compatibility . . . "
Sometime in 2012
User: "Hey GS, any chance of being able to drag select objects in Creator?" GS: "sorry guys, we're working on Mountain Lion compatibility . . . "
Sometime in 2013
User: "Hey GS, any chance of being able to drag select objects in Creator?" GS: "sorry guys, we're working on Mavericks compatibility . . . "
. . . etc etc . . .
P.S this is not a criticism of GameSalad, this is a criticism of the idea that OS updates are a legitimate reason for halting product development (nor has GS ever claimed they were).
Apple won't halt their product development to give GameSalad breathing space to work on Creator.
Exactly and GS won't stop stretching its limited resources to respond.
Granted. I fall back to my Ford Taurus analogy. Don't focus on tinting the windows and putting in a 1000$ stereo system. When you have more important things to spend time and money on. Like oil change, fixing the cracked windshield, etc etc. let's pour the concrete and get the walls up before we go shopping for curtains and matching napkin holders. Let's get the doors on level and the drywall up before we decide what color cloth to put on the pool table we haven't picked out yet.
I'm used to working in medium-big teams, spanning 5-7 programmers for each project. Then we are able to bring in consultants whenever huge problems arise.
In GS' case though, WOW 4 engineers for everything! That's incredible. There are pros to having a very talented cream of the crop team, but also cons to having extremely limited manpower. I can personally relate each time @CodeWizard and @dgackey try their best to explain limited resources to everyone. Are there still any plans to expand the team? I'm sure it would benefit the company and paying customers greatly
. . . There are pros to having a very talented cream of the crop team, but also cons to having extremely limited manpower. I can personally relate each time @CodeWizard and @dgackey try their best to explain limited resources to everyone. . .
I think people understand that resources are limited, CodeWizard had been open and clear about that, it's just that it can be frustrating to see so many things take precedence over Creator bug fixes and much needed improvements given these limited resources, when you've spent 3 years using the top edge of a browser window as your ruler/guide in GameSalad it can be frustrating to know that GameSalad are working on in-house game templates, a Tizen deal and even async, don't get me wrong, this is all good stuff (looking forward to async especially) it just seems that GameSalad's priorities are at odds with its users priorities, stealing from FINNBOGG's analogy it does feel like someone's choosing some rather nice furniture without having noticed there is no roof on the house.
I am actually super-happy with GS. A lot of people seems to have forgotten that @CodeWizzard polled the community when he arrived about the things we cared about the most and loading times + frame rate optimization were at the top of the list and we got exactly that. Games load faster and run faster, so thank you for that! The small programming team at GS focused on low-hanging fruit initially and then had to pull up their sleeves to dig deeper into the old code base to clean up the mess that was left behind to get better results and to build a solid foundation. Not a fun job, especially since it does not show up on the surface for us users as new features or improvements.
And yes, it sucks that they have to work on supporting deals that were made previously (Tizen) but that is the way it is to keep a business going. The best thing you can do to help GS is to recommend it to your friends, go Pro if you have not already, encourage more people to go Pro and use the forums to promote the good things about the engine. I would be completely lost without GS since I can't code and we have to remember that there is no guarantee that GS will be around forever unless we support the GS team.
Sure, the Creator could use improvements, but it is perfectly possible to make great games with it, even without any improvements. If you make games that require much more robust editing tools then for the time being consider making a different style of game that is a better fit for what GS can do well right now. If you refuse to make a game that is better suited to the GS tools that you already have now then check out http://www.mantuapps.com/gscse/full/ and buy the editing tool that MantuApps made. I don't know if I need it for my projects, but I will buy it anyway to give MantuApps a chance to continue building great tools.
I am not saying that you can't bring up negative issues with the Creator, off course you can. However, I am pretty sure that the GS team knows exactly what is needed to make the engine better and they just have to prioritize their resources the best way they can.
Here is a thought: If I was a potential new user of GS arriving at this site today the first thing I would do is to I read the forums. Based on the tone of the posts and the critical nature of many of the members of this community I might end up moving on to the next tool out there -- missing out on a great engine and a (generally) wonderful community. We need more users, especially Pro users, who give GS a chance to survive in a tough marketplace. As users of GS and as supporters of the engine it is my opinion that we need to be constructive and patient. At least I will try to think about that next time I post on the forums when I am struggling with a frustrating bug or Creator issue
Comments
All feed back is valuable no matter how trivial or outlandish some of it may be as long as it is not rude, offensive, etc. Look at the bug fix list for example that will help GS a lot and it wouldn't of happened without user complaints. When this is implemented people like Socks, myself and others will more likely report bugs instead of thinking someone else has probably already done it or screw it they never respond so why bother.
This means more bugs will get fixed as they occur instead of persisting and maybe causing bigger problems further along the development path. This is one of the biggest reasons GS is so buggy.
I only wrote this because I am waiting for the server to come back online so I can publish. GS any idea when it will be back up?
Universal Binary Template - Universal Binary Template Instructions Rev 4 (Short) - Custom Score Display Template
sorry for inconvenience.
Please DM me with everything you're doing so we can attempt to reproduce the problem on our end.
Thanks, and please confirm and advise.
We all know we've seen these cars on the road.
SO. can we at least please stop taking the creator ui issue and dropping it to the bottom of the list every time someone in the GS office finds a new 3rd party company that "MIGHT" peak our interest and cause a few people to go PRO.
Universal Binary Template - Universal Binary Template Instructions Rev 4 (Short) - Custom Score Display Template
But, sure, there's a balance to be found, once the conversation is reasonably civil and no one is being personal or offensive then I can't see the issue.
You could extend the analogy to game making, I'd rather have a bunch of forum members telling me what they don't like about my game rather than post after post of 'awesome app, good luck on the app store' because they feel pointing out my poor design or clumsy coding might come over as critical or rude.
Generally there is humour and genuine concern behind the criticisms. If that ceases it will just get boring and destructive.
But i'd like to share just small but if advise for your busy busy bees. Finish one task before moving to the next. I accomplish so much more in my day if I can keep from jumping between projects.
So how about you make a list if tasks and when someone starts a task they finish it before moving on.
I think I can speak for most everyone here. we would be a little less pissy about slow progress if there appeared to be a steady progress at all. We occasionally get a nightly build update that has been rolling out maybe weekly. And in many cases there's not much new in the update.
A perfect example is in 9 days between the last 2 nighty build the change log was
Added buzz
And a bug fix.
Well it's already be said by you guys buzz was just a line code that was easy to drop in so in reality 9 days accomplished a bug fix for a rotation issue. I mean I fully understand code is way freaking harder than drag n drop but 9 days and all that was accomplished is a bug fix? Surly you can appreciate our frustrations in that.
My 2 cents
I'v been working to update my older stuff to iOS7 and its a freaking nightmare due to the bugs regarding camera settings and pause. It would sure be nice to have that feature finished since it was started and works great in the creator preview.
Also android screen detection issues makes it impossible to build a universal app for android so dang it's almost like that one feature that's already half done would be a huge benefit to the GameSalad user base.
Just sayin.
Cheers
On a different note, I actually think GS are really lucky to have such a dedicated community. Not sure it's all that common for customers to feel so involved with a software product/service they use.
And I also vote for more time allocated to creator improvements.
I say have more code days for @codewizard! <:-P After all he did build the engine for Draw Something. I'm sure he could add some nice improvements to creator...
Just having "standard" things like multi select, and locking/hiding of layers would make 99% of your users lives so much better on a day to day basis.
Me personally, I couldn't care less about a new ad revenue service, or a new platform I have no interest in (or to be fair, not enough knowledge about). But I know others do like these sort of things.
I'd rather have functionality over new features (it seems like we were promised that 8 or 9 months ago, and things seemed to be moving in that direction...but now, I dunno.
What I do want...is a tool that helps me make the games I want to make. The games I have in my head, without being hindered by a clumsy UI.
(I don't know if you have noticed, but doing anything slightly more complex than a simple game, isn't really a great user experience)
*I'm not having a go btw. Sounds like you guys are as slammed as ever getting things done
Also...+1 (again) for stretch
how easy would this be to implement? (I have asked a few times in the past, but never got anyone to discuss it)...
When I drag a new actor into a scene, I can't think of a time when I would EVER (and I mean...never ever!) need it to be within .xxxx decimal places of a pixel.
i.e. I drag a new actor into a scene. it gets placed at x=123.5879 y=492.8546
and then I have to open the actor, to get to it's x and y values to change them to 123 and 492 (and then maybe use the keyboard to shift them around in singles (or tens) from that point onwards.
That alone would save me hours, especially on more complex projects, with lots of layout stuff.
Why so specific on the initial drop?
I need x.xxxx pixels in my game because I have an actor rolling around an uneven surface and the ground actors need to line up precisely to look good and not interfere with the rolling actor.
Universal Binary Template - Universal Binary Template Instructions Rev 4 (Short) - Custom Score Display Template
A little off topic, but . . .
Yep, this aspect of the UI crucifies me on a daily basis . . . . a workaround I now use is to make a kind of auto-snap-to-pixel system that automatically corrects the actor's position to the nearest whole pixel value at the start of the game, the following two Change Attribute rules places the actor on whole pixel values. (I'm guessing you know most of this already, but might be useful to someone with the same issue).
Change Attribute: self.Position.X to floor( self.Position.X )
Change Attribute: self.Position.Y to floor( self.Position.Y )
It can be easily adjusted to snap to multiples of pixel values too, the following will snap the actor to the nearest 10 pixel grid position (140 - 150 - 160 - 170 . . . etc)
Change Attribute: self.Position.X to floor( self.Position.X /10)*10
Change Attribute: self.Position.Y to floor( self.Position.Y /10)*10
You have to place these rules into every single actor which necessarily means you have dozens of extra rules, and it only works at run time, but it can save the time and trouble of having to open dozens and dozens of windows to delete the decimal places - with certain projects.
Snap-to-grid would kill off this issue.
that's an awesome little workaround.
[steals]
multi object selection and snap to grid are really important to optimize the work, usually they are basic commands in all software; but one good news here is goodbye mobclix...
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Shadows Peak is an atmospheric psychological horror that explores the dark side of a player.
Like FINNBOGG says it's a pity GS don't just fix it.
Many of the commenters are upset, because doing repetitive tasks can literally make you feel crazy. I wouldn't say to take any offense at all these comments. They're not personal at all! We are guinea pigs, whose behavioral data can point you to the areas of game salad that are the most difficult for users to deal with. We know that you hold the power to get rid of the craziness. So, tizen guy will be freed up in a few weeks and you get 25% of you're work force back. Engine guy and the two floaters seem to be making headway. Is there any way that you and the two floaters could have a creator week next week?!! Tizen guy can be left alone, and engine guy. Or something like that? You would have many adoring fans at the end of it! Whatever gets done is done, whatever isn't will have to wait for the next creator week. Then everyone goes back to their regular tasks that will probably take many more weeks or months to finish.
These are the comments of a humble game salad commenter... The time will have to be spent on creator at some point, if you could somehow do those hours sooner than other tasks, you will literally save users many hours of grunt work.
Thanks, David
With the resource limitations this is just the reality of the wagon we are on. It 'aint going to change folks.
I would, correction, I have accepted the frustrations of Creator over the imperative need to have the software work with the lasted iOS upgrade and now a major shift in the computer OS. We will all (except PC people) be upgrading to Mavericks before we know it and I think the complaints of that not working with GS would outweigh complaints about the Creator.
I hope I do not sound like some Chicken Little, GS fanboy, teachers pet and I could be wrong. Back to making apps.
A play:
Sometime in 2010
User: "Hey GS, any chance of being able to drag select objects in Creator?"
GS: "sorry guys, we're working on Snow Leopard compatibility . . . "
Sometime in 2011
User: "Hey GS, any chance of being able to drag select objects in Creator?"
GS: "sorry guys, we're working on Lion compatibility . . . "
Sometime in 2012
User: "Hey GS, any chance of being able to drag select objects in Creator?"
GS: "sorry guys, we're working on Mountain Lion compatibility . . . "
Sometime in 2013
User: "Hey GS, any chance of being able to drag select objects in Creator?"
GS: "sorry guys, we're working on Mavericks compatibility . . . "
. . . etc etc . . .
P.S this is not a criticism of GameSalad, this is a criticism of the idea that OS updates are a legitimate reason for halting product development (nor has GS ever claimed they were).
In GS' case though, WOW 4 engineers for everything! That's incredible. There are pros to having a very talented cream of the crop team, but also cons to having extremely limited manpower. I can personally relate each time @CodeWizard and @dgackey try their best to explain limited resources to everyone. Are there still any plans to expand the team? I'm sure it would benefit the company and paying customers greatly
Guru Video Channel | Lost Oasis Games | FRYING BACON STUDIOS
And yes, it sucks that they have to work on supporting deals that were made previously (Tizen) but that is the way it is to keep a business going. The best thing you can do to help GS is to recommend it to your friends, go Pro if you have not already, encourage more people to go Pro and use the forums to promote the good things about the engine. I would be completely lost without GS since I can't code and we have to remember that there is no guarantee that GS will be around forever unless we support the GS team.
Sure, the Creator could use improvements, but it is perfectly possible to make great games with it, even without any improvements. If you make games that require much more robust editing tools then for the time being consider making a different style of game that is a better fit for what GS can do well right now. If you refuse to make a game that is better suited to the GS tools that you already have now then check out http://www.mantuapps.com/gscse/full/ and buy the editing tool that MantuApps made. I don't know if I need it for my projects, but I will buy it anyway to give MantuApps a chance to continue building great tools.
I am not saying that you can't bring up negative issues with the Creator, off course you can. However, I am pretty sure that the GS team knows exactly what is needed to make the engine better and they just have to prioritize their resources the best way they can.
Here is a thought: If I was a potential new user of GS arriving at this site today the first thing I would do is to I read the forums. Based on the tone of the posts and the critical nature of many of the members of this community I might end up moving on to the next tool out there -- missing out on a great engine and a (generally) wonderful community. We need more users, especially Pro users, who give GS a chance to survive in a tough marketplace. As users of GS and as supporters of the engine it is my opinion that we need to be constructive and patient. At least I will try to think about that next time I post on the forums when I am struggling with a frustrating bug or Creator issue
Guru Video Channel | Lost Oasis Games | FRYING BACON STUDIOS