I don't mind paying $2000.00 for a pro account. These guys gotta make money! But killing pro is getting rid of the pros who use GS. Kill pro and you kill professional use!
Gendai Games Inc. Don't be stupid! Create direct for the newbies and hobbiest, but leave a pro option for us pros!!!
TechnoDave said: I don't mind paying $2000.00 for a pro account. These guys gotta make money! But killing pro is getting rid of the pros who use GS. Kill pro and you kill professional use!
Gendai Games Inc. Don't be stupid! Create direct for the newbies and hobbiest, but leave a pro option for us pros!!!
I agree. I also think they should keep pro at 2k. If your games aren't successful enough to justify that cost, no point going pro, in my opinion (hence why I'm still on an express account - lol).
Well, $2k is too much for me for a pro version, but in the $4-500 range i'd jump on it, and I bet a lot of others would, too. (If it meant we could continue to submit our apps through our own accounts, of course.)
I do have confidence that GameSalad will continue to get better, faster, more capable, etc. There are a lot of really sharp, dedicated people working on it.
And as a community, we have indeed made our feelings, wishes, and requirements known to GS management. Let's all hope they reconsider based on this feedback, and keep GameSalad a viable solution for all of us.
sdpardue said: Well, $2k is too much for me for a pro version, but in the $4-500 range i'd jump on it, and I bet a lot of others would, too. (If it meant we could continue to submit our apps through our own accounts, of course.)
I do have confidence that GameSalad will continue to get better, faster, more capable, etc. There are a lot of really sharp, dedicated people working on it.
And as a community, we have indeed made our feelings, wishes, and requirements known to GS management. Let's all hope they reconsider based on this feedback, and keep GameSalad a viable solution for all of us.
I hadn't thought about it until now because all that has been going on, the community being pulled apart, the new crappy system, surrendering one's name, etc. - but my desktop wall paper is still the GS logo and name.
It isn't just some image pulled either; I messed with it a bit, made it look a little unique.
I feel sad now every time I see it, along with the "GameSalad" folder, highlighted in blue, that lives on my Desktop.
I'm happy they responded, whats now been stated is not all that awful... most important thing is retaining the IP to me. If Gendai learns from this experience and things get better with the information feed and clarity of how it all works then its simply every individuals free choice to decide what to do.
I like GS the tool, more then the others out there so heres to keeping a positive attitude and simply see where it all ends up at which point decisions will be made.
BackUpAndDown said: The only thing I care about right now is Gs releasing Direct (no matter how lame it is) before I go bankrupt...
I hope youve got enough to cover yourself for a couple of months, because reading between the lines tells me that Direct isnt going to be appearing for at least another month or 2.
The fact that theyve removed any option to buy licenses now, without having Direct already inplace for an immediate switchover has probably got something to do with the GameSalad terms and conditions that states that they must give paid customers 30 days notice before making any changes to subscription pricing. So from making the announcement, that means at least a month before they can implement Direct without breaking their own terms of service.
The fact that in the COO statement, extensions to paid subscriptions were being offered to users whos subscriptions were about to run out also indicates that release of Direct is still some way off too. If it was due over the next week or so, they wouldnt have felt the need to offer the extensions.
Ive also got a feeling that we might not now get to see a new build (0.9) anymore, that people were eagerly awaiting before the bombshell announcement... as priority will now be with getting the new build of the tools working and getting the Direct side of things incorporated into the system.
What's wrong with some of you??? Maybe GS and self publishing doesn't mean a lot to you, but some of use have built our business around self publishing with GS. This is going to kill so many of us!!!!!
Now is not the time to joke around. Please scream and shout and let Gendai Games know they are making a huge mistake!!!!
Kill pro is a selfish move that will hurt GameSalad in the end. It's great to come up with something like direct to help people new to the game get their feet wet. But who forget about those who use GameSalad as a professional tool.
I have no interest in making my own games. If I did, then fine take a chunk for your self Gendai, but once you go Direct and kill Pro there is just no way I can use this tool for my clients!
thats why retaining your IP is the most valuable thing, especially if you are making games for clients. That said if you have clients paying you to make games hire-ring a C coder or whatever else should not be a issue for you... you probably make more money then when uploading your own app/game... it would only increase the cost to the client if anything.
The thing is IP is what its all about, doesnt matter where you publish or how you make it with what ever tools are out there... IP is what you take with you forever and if you have a serious hit thats also where the money is. It allows you to license you characters and stay in control of the creative process. I under stand that enough people want to self publish, this is something that appeals to every one myself included. I think its all very justifiable what every one has expressed in the forums.. im just keeping my fingers crossed and will wait and see what Gendai does with all our feedback.
I agree 100% with TechnoDave. I had used game salad for client work and it allows me to make it more affordable for the client due to its quick development turnaround but if they can not even publish it under their company, this will never happen again.
I don't see why the pro can not be offered and direct at the same time. I know there are going to be lots more kids making apps now that they don't have to file any paperwork to create an account with apple or pay 99$ fees. This to me is extremely horrible since I am trying to build a company based off of making mobile apps. If this turns out to be the case I will be forced to become on of the users that has to talk bad about this potentially great tool.
Sorry if what I say offends anyone, but I would rather see Gendai give up on GameSalad than help flood the mobile market with horrible apps. I thought that the price structure for pro was high based on what they offered compared to the Express version. But now is Express becomes direct and pro stays as it is, I could see more people justifying buying the Pro account.
Gendai, will you be replying to us soon as to whether there will be a pro option in the future? I am currently using GameSalad on several projects for my customers. And now I have to warn them that if I don't finished those projects in time then they will need to share profits with Gendai and that they won't be able to publish under their own names.
If there is not going to be a pro in the future, then I need to STOP USING GAMESALAD right away and switch to something else!
@TechnoDave: I would stop using GS now if I were you. There are other alternatives that are easy, maybe not as easy as GS, but easy enough and you do not need to worry about someone taking it away from you. Our last client project had horrible memory leaks due to the amount of data and sounds used in the app and now I will have to tell the client it will not be fixed.
I plan on slowly porting things over to my Unity Pro or ITGB engine so I can continue providing support to my clients. In a professionaly environment you never want to tell a client that you will no longer be able to fix something because it is "out of your hands". I am just disappointed I decided to use this tool for clients now. But based off my personal projects, it felt as a good tool to use but the changes they are pushing are making it one dimensional. Yes random people want to produce apps, yes this engine makes it easy, and yes you are cutting the initial cost down but you are removing the dedicated individuals who want to make products for THEIR company.
Most kids or hobbyist are going to make one or two apps and realize it involves a lot of work then move off while the true indie developers will continue to make product after product. Unfortunately if Direct comes out as it is being stated, they will lose majority of their indie developers but gain a lot of random apps from the kids or hobbyist who thinks it would be "cool" to make an app.
I hope that doesn't happen but it is what I worry about the most.
Why would I want to revenue share with you when your engine is still slow, performs badly, and it's hard enough to make a competitive product as it is? Splitting revenues, no matter how slim, with another party other than Apple is unacceptable. It also goes against virtually every other iphone engine on the planet. Good luck with that.
Instead of developing a business model around a better product and easy iphone publishing, it seems you're going the direction of trying to milk each individual product.
for those who don't want to click the link: "And he spake a parable unto them to the end that they ought always to pray, and not to faint; saying, There was in a city a judge, who feared not God, and regarded not man: and there was a widow in that city; and she came oft unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary. And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man; yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest she wear me out by her continual coming. And the Lord said, Hear what the unrighteous judge saith. And shall not God avenge his elect, that cry to him day and night, and yet he is longsuffering over them? I say unto you, that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"
My interpretation to this yellow post: We're praying for the best and If we whine enough, they'll eventually give in and try to give us a 'speedy' response, but not necessarily what we want...however, who will stay at the end and who will trust them when the time comes to do business?
Then he told his fellow users a parable to show them that they should keep spamming the forums and not give up. He said: “In a certain forum there was a admin who neither feared the users nor cared about their needs. And there were independent publishers in that forum who kept coming to him with the plea, "Grant us the ability to publish our own apps to itunes." For some time the head admin refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t care about my users or care about what they want, yet because these users keeps bothering me, I will see that they get justice, so that they won’t eventually brake the forums with their complaining!’”
The solution truly is simple, and the only way GameSalad can save face... Keep the basic and pro membership options, and add on the Direct option as a third choice.
The big problem with GameSalad going the route they plan is that they were originally providing us with a TOOL to make our games, but now they're trying to squeeze themselves in as a middle-man. So let's imagine a scenario where Autodesk suddenly decided that every game/movie/project that was made with 3dsMAX or MAYA had to be published by them. Or imagine Adobe suddenly required that EVERY product made with their tools had to share royalties with them! There's no way in hell people will go for that, so GameSalad should not be surprised at all by this backlash.
GameSalad said:When a developer makes a break out game, we’ll be able to provide additional support, whether that support is marketing or otherwise, to help the game obtain even greater success. Finally, by moving to a revenue share model (details below), we are aligning our interests with that of the community – when you win, we win.
Hey, when I win, GameSalad wins! Thanks!! What this says to me is that you want to have a cut of profitable games, plain and simple. Stop trying to fluff it up to sound like we're getting a great deal here. If a game is a hit it will continue to do well, that much is obvious about the App Store, they won't really need your "help" in marketing or "otherwise" (whatever that means). The ONLY outcome of forcing us to publish through you is that you take some of the money that SHOULD have gone to the developer.
Am I wrong here, or are the only benefits of pro membership ad support and custom load screens? That is why I decided to go with the basic, so saying that we get the pro version is really not much to get excited about, at least not for me.
This whole announcement reeks of marketing hooplah, trying to convince the customer that they're getting something great, when they're really just getting it from behind.
It's funny... People keep ranting about keeping PRO. The problem still is that PRO isn't really that great of a deal to me. I'm sure a lot of other people feel this way. PRO is quite a rip off when you consider other options. So as an hopeful express user, I'm just outta luck I guess...no matter how you spin it.
Only 1 solution will keep this company operating and satisfy this entire debacle and bring back those that departed.
GENDAI...LISTEN UP!!! Make the software free for all. At time of publishing offer two options to the dev for a title submission:
Option 1) $20 + 25% net royalties >>> publish with GS. Option 2) $100/year to compile a single registered app title and allow the dev to publish the app bundle under their own app store account. This would require a PRO Administrative/Membership account that would cost $250/year (existing users have their accounts grandfathered in for the duration of their license...Current Pro users get an extra year for free).
This would require 1 more thing: Get the GE up to par with other platforms.
Do this...and you might just salvage your reputation...and the exodus may reverse direction.
This is a TRUE win-win...as it allows hobbyists to come in at low risk...but allows the software to be used as a tool for pro devs.
If you force the pros into your publishing scheme...they won't come...and you won't have the titles to keep the wheels greased...and the whole system will collapse under the weight of its administrative overhead...keeping poor performing apps supported.
This is my best solution that I can come up with for you all. If you don't put something like this...or close to this in play...I highly suspect this whole thing will collapse.
synthesis said: Option 2) $100/year to compile the app title and allow the dev to publish under their own app store account. This would require a PRO Administrative/Membership account that would cost $250/year.
I agree 100%. Except I don't understand ^this^...
Your suggesting the pro account costs $250/year and each app you publish costs another $100/year?
to clarify... If you want to self-publish...you open a GS Pro User dev account. This gives you access for customer support (and maybe some other privileges). This account is required to bypass the GS Direct Publishing option and costs $250/year. You cannot self-publish without this account.
Then to register a title under this account...you have to pay $100/year per title to compile it. So in effect...if you built 3 apps per year...it would cost you $550/year to have those apps built and supported/updated independently with GS software.
If you built 8 apps per year...it would cost $250 + $800 = $1050 per year to compile those apps. If you don't need a compile...you don't have to register/renew the title.
Basically it allows Gendai to get a service charge tax on every title being built. It is higher for those wanting to remain independent and lower for those wanting to partner with GS.
Option 1 puts the risk/reward skewed towards GS...Option 2 puts the risk/reward skewed towards devs.
Its the fairest and easiest model I can come up with...as the true pro devs WILL NEVER publish with anyone.
In my model the more titles that are published with GS software...the better it is for Gendai. But it allows those that want independence to remain independent...but at a higher cost...that is scaled based on their usage.
Think about it GS...it could be the profit model that actually works. And if it does work...I expect a free dev account for life with unlimited compiles for conceiving the business model that saved GS and made y'all rich.
GameSalad is an amazing tool! The programmers working on GameSalad should get a huge pat on the back! And I for one want to make sure these guys stay employed, and to do that GameSalad need to make money.
There is a really simple solution to this problem, do 2 things.
1. Make the most amazing GameSalad Direct you can with all the bells and whistles. If it's worth it people with buy into it.
2. Keep a Pro option for the professional users. ---------------------------------------
For those of you who are asking for a $250-$400 a year pro membership... No offense but you need to take a business class or two. That is just way to little for these guys to stay in business. I will gladly pay $2000 or even more to keep these guys and their great programmers in business. Any members who are aren't willing to support these guys are just being selfish. And on the same note if Gendai ignores the needs of it members then they too are being selfish!
I am not sure why Gendai is dicking around on all this. GameSalad Direct and GameSalad Pro which give the ability to self publish are two great options.
Comments
Gendai Games Inc.
Don't be stupid! Create direct for the newbies and hobbiest, but leave a pro option for us pros!!!
I do have confidence that GameSalad will continue to get better, faster, more capable, etc. There are a lot of really sharp, dedicated people working on it.
And as a community, we have indeed made our feelings, wishes, and requirements known to GS management. Let's all hope they reconsider based on this feedback, and keep GameSalad a viable solution for all of us.
It's not too late to make this work for everyone.
-Josh
It isn't just some image pulled either; I messed with it a bit, made it look a little unique.
I feel sad now every time I see it, along with the "GameSalad" folder, highlighted in blue, that lives on my Desktop.
Glad I never got a GS tat or anything. >.<'
(by the way, come visit the new forum peach, it has a section for GameSalad development as well as the other dev programs. http://www.ijustwannamakesomegames.com/forum/ )
I like GS the tool, more then the others out there so heres to keeping a positive attitude and simply see where it all ends up at which point decisions will be made.
I hope they don't censor me again, but if you don't know where to look, just click on my name for my profile details.
The fact that theyve removed any option to buy licenses now, without having Direct already inplace for an immediate switchover has probably got something to do with the GameSalad terms and conditions that states that they must give paid customers 30 days notice before making any changes to subscription pricing. So from making the announcement, that means at least a month before they can implement Direct without breaking their own terms of service.
The fact that in the COO statement, extensions to paid subscriptions were being offered to users whos subscriptions were about to run out also indicates that release of Direct is still some way off too. If it was due over the next week or so, they wouldnt have felt the need to offer the extensions.
Ive also got a feeling that we might not now get to see a new build (0.9) anymore, that people were eagerly awaiting before the bombshell announcement... as priority will now be with getting the new build of the tools working and getting the Direct side of things incorporated into the system.
Now is not the time to joke around. Please scream and shout and let Gendai Games know they are making a huge mistake!!!!
Kill pro is a selfish move that will hurt GameSalad in the end. It's great to come up with something like direct to help people new to the game get their feet wet. But who forget about those who use GameSalad as a professional tool.
I have no interest in making my own games. If I did, then fine take a chunk for your self Gendai, but once you go Direct and kill Pro there is just no way I can use this tool for my clients!
The thing is IP is what its all about, doesnt matter where you publish or how you make it with what ever tools are out there... IP is what you take with you forever and if you have a serious hit thats also where the money is. It allows you to license you characters and stay in control of the creative process. I under stand that enough people want to self publish, this is something that appeals to every one myself included. I think its all very justifiable what every one has expressed in the forums.. im just keeping my fingers crossed and will wait and see what Gendai does with all our feedback.
I don't see why the pro can not be offered and direct at the same time. I know there are going to be lots more kids making apps now that they don't have to file any paperwork to create an account with apple or pay 99$ fees. This to me is extremely horrible since I am trying to build a company based off of making mobile apps. If this turns out to be the case I will be forced to become on of the users that has to talk bad about this potentially great tool.
Sorry if what I say offends anyone, but I would rather see Gendai give up on GameSalad than help flood the mobile market with horrible apps. I thought that the price structure for pro was high based on what they offered compared to the Express version. But now is Express becomes direct and pro stays as it is, I could see more people justifying buying the Pro account.
Dane
If there is not going to be a pro in the future, then I need to STOP USING GAMESALAD right away and switch to something else!
I plan on slowly porting things over to my Unity Pro or ITGB engine so I can continue providing support to my clients. In a professionaly environment you never want to tell a client that you will no longer be able to fix something because it is "out of your hands". I am just disappointed I decided to use this tool for clients now. But based off my personal projects, it felt as a good tool to use but the changes they are pushing are making it one dimensional. Yes random people want to produce apps, yes this engine makes it easy, and yes you are cutting the initial cost down but you are removing the dedicated individuals who want to make products for THEIR company.
Most kids or hobbyist are going to make one or two apps and realize it involves a lot of work then move off while the true indie developers will continue to make product after product. Unfortunately if Direct comes out as it is being stated, they will lose majority of their indie developers but gain a lot of random apps from the kids or hobbyist who thinks it would be "cool" to make an app.
I hope that doesn't happen but it is what I worry about the most.
Instead of developing a business model around a better product and easy iphone publishing, it seems you're going the direction of trying to milk each individual product.
Get off your patooties and answer the questions already!
To be honest I don't know know if I'd get an acct regardless of what they say now. I don't know if they can be trusted.
Maybe if they confirm they'd NEVER take the pro option away. Anything less...shame...gosh darn shame. I bought my Mac Mini and everything.
Gospel Luke 18, 18-1:
http://asvbible.com/luke/18.htm
for those who don't want to click the link:
"And he spake a parable unto them to the end that they ought always to pray, and not to faint; saying, There was in a city a judge, who feared not God, and regarded not man: and there was a widow in that city; and she came oft unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary. And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man; yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest she wear me out by her continual coming. And the Lord said, Hear what the unrighteous judge saith. And shall not God avenge his elect, that cry to him day and night, and yet he is longsuffering over them? I say unto you, that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"
My interpretation to this yellow post:
We're praying for the best and If we whine enough, they'll eventually give in and try to give us a 'speedy' response, but not necessarily what we want...however, who will stay at the end and who will trust them when the time comes to do business?
And for the people who speak english...
Then he told his fellow users a parable to show them that they should keep spamming the forums and not give up. He said: “In a certain forum there was a admin who neither feared the users nor cared about their needs. And there were independent publishers in that forum who kept coming to him with the plea, "Grant us the ability to publish our own apps to itunes." For some time the head admin refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t care about my users or care about what they want, yet because these users keeps bothering me, I will see that they get justice, so that they won’t eventually brake the forums with their complaining!’”
That pretty much sums it up, right?
The big problem with GameSalad going the route they plan is that they were originally providing us with a TOOL to make our games, but now they're trying to squeeze themselves in as a middle-man. So let's imagine a scenario where Autodesk suddenly decided that every game/movie/project that was made with 3dsMAX or MAYA had to be published by them. Or imagine Adobe suddenly required that EVERY product made with their tools had to share royalties with them! There's no way in hell people will go for that, so GameSalad should not be surprised at all by this backlash. Hey, when I win, GameSalad wins! Thanks!! What this says to me is that you want to have a cut of profitable games, plain and simple. Stop trying to fluff it up to sound like we're getting a great deal here. If a game is a hit it will continue to do well, that much is obvious about the App Store, they won't really need your "help" in marketing or "otherwise" (whatever that means). The ONLY outcome of forcing us to publish through you is that you take some of the money that SHOULD have gone to the developer.
Am I wrong here, or are the only benefits of pro membership ad support and custom load screens? That is why I decided to go with the basic, so saying that we get the pro version is really not much to get excited about, at least not for me.
This whole announcement reeks of marketing hooplah, trying to convince the customer that they're getting something great, when they're really just getting it from behind.
GENDAI...LISTEN UP!!!
Make the software free for all.
At time of publishing offer two options to the dev for a title submission:
Option 1) $20 + 25% net royalties >>> publish with GS.
Option 2) $100/year to compile a single registered app title and allow the dev to publish the app bundle under their own app store account. This would require a PRO Administrative/Membership account that would cost $250/year (existing users have their accounts grandfathered in for the duration of their license...Current Pro users get an extra year for free).
This would require 1 more thing:
Get the GE up to par with other platforms.
Do this...and you might just salvage your reputation...and the exodus may reverse direction.
This is a TRUE win-win...as it allows hobbyists to come in at low risk...but allows the software to be used as a tool for pro devs.
If you force the pros into your publishing scheme...they won't come...and you won't have the titles to keep the wheels greased...and the whole system will collapse under the weight of its administrative overhead...keeping poor performing apps supported.
This is my best solution that I can come up with for you all. If you don't put something like this...or close to this in play...I highly suspect this whole thing will collapse.
Your suggesting the pro account costs $250/year and each app you publish costs another $100/year?
If you want to self-publish...you open a GS Pro User dev account. This gives you access for customer support (and maybe some other privileges). This account is required to bypass the GS Direct Publishing option and costs $250/year. You cannot self-publish without this account.
Then to register a title under this account...you have to pay $100/year per title to compile it. So in effect...if you built 3 apps per year...it would cost you $550/year to have those apps built and supported/updated independently with GS software.
If you built 8 apps per year...it would cost $250 + $800 = $1050 per year to compile those apps. If you don't need a compile...you don't have to register/renew the title.
Basically it allows Gendai to get a service charge tax on every title being built. It is higher for those wanting to remain independent and lower for those wanting to partner with GS.
Option 1 puts the risk/reward skewed towards GS...Option 2 puts the risk/reward skewed towards devs.
Its the fairest and easiest model I can come up with...as the true pro devs WILL NEVER publish with anyone.
In my model the more titles that are published with GS software...the better it is for Gendai. But it allows those that want independence to remain independent...but at a higher cost...that is scaled based on their usage.
Think about it GS...it could be the profit model that actually works. And if it does work...I expect a free dev account for life with unlimited compiles for conceiving the business model that saved GS and made y'all rich.
GameSalad is an amazing tool! The programmers working on GameSalad should get a huge pat on the back! And I for one want to make sure these guys stay employed, and to do that GameSalad need to make money.
There is a really simple solution to this problem, do 2 things.
1. Make the most amazing GameSalad Direct you can with all the bells and whistles. If it's worth it people with buy into it.
2. Keep a Pro option for the professional users.
---------------------------------------
For those of you who are asking for a $250-$400 a year pro membership... No offense but you need to take a business class or two. That is just way to little for these guys to stay in business. I will gladly pay $2000 or even more to keep these guys and their great programmers in business. Any members who are aren't willing to support these guys are just being selfish. And on the same note if Gendai ignores the needs of it members then they too are being selfish!
I am not sure why Gendai is dicking around on all this. GameSalad Direct and GameSalad Pro which give the ability to self publish are two great options.