Vote for GameSalad to Become Open Source

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VOTE FOR GAMESALAD TO BECOME OPEN SOURCE:

Open source = Any Coder can make a plugin to add features and grow GameSalad exponentially.
That does not mean GameSalad would be free and no longer able to make money, on the contrary:
GameSalad would not only make money via subscription but also by taking % on plugins vetted on the would-be Store.

From various users on the forum:

1 this would be equivalent to GameSalad getting free coders, saving resources, time and money.
Essentially getting help for free to improve the engine.
2 Making GameSalad more competitive, attractive and feature rich.
3 More sales/subscriptions to potential users, given the range of additional add-ons.
4 Reinvigorating the user base, who frankly feels like doomsday is creeping around the corner on our beloved GS.
5 Strengthen the community.
6 Bringing a whole new type of customers and retain the ones who are leaving.
7 Making it open Source and being able to see the code would also be a big educational benefit.
8 Did I mention saving GameSalad?

THE BOTTOM LINE IS: A, SUBSCRIPTION + REVENUE FROM PLUGINS, FORMULA, IS A WIN WIN FOR EVERYONE!

GAME SALAD TEAM, PLUGIN DEVELOPERS, CUSTOMERS AND PLAYERS.

WHEN YOU CAN'T RESOURCE, YOU OPEN-SOURCE

THE FIRST POST, UNDERNEATH THE POLL, IS A COMPILATION OF WHAT'S BEEN SAID RECENTLY ON THE SUBJECT.
Please take the time to read, if you don't really know what you are voting for.
Thank you.

blob

@bdusing @ForumNinja @adent42 @CodeWizard ...@everyone

I apologize in advance if I quoted anyone out of context, my intention was to compiled
what was being said here:
http://forums.gamesalad.com/discussion/93330/state-of-gamesalad-on-10-4-2016/p3
about GameSalad becoming open source so as to bring more awareness to our community, those no digging too much in the forum and those no too familiar with the open source format.

Many think it is a very important issue that could define the future (or lack of) of our beloved GameSalad.

I classified relevant bits and pieces in 4 parts"

1 The problem & the fix
2 The moral issue.
3 Open source and education are also synergetic
4 How does open source work?

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1 THE PROBLEM & THE FIX

@blob said:
Some of us work so hard to make high quality games only to be brought down by long standing Gamesalad bugs, issues and missing basic features.
Resulting in amateur UX experience and 1 star ratings and fleeing customer base.

1 Make GS open source (so we can nurture it)
This will allow this brave community to fix and grow GS exponentially ...
2 GameSalad and developers alike would make money on extra plugins.
Thus creating a stronger GS economy, like so many other open source softwares.

Selling $8 to $30 or more dollars plugins to an expanding crowd, growing a software platform and brand, is better than losing customers and going endlessly downhill.

The bottom line is subscription plus revenue from plugins is a win win for everyone!
Gamesalad, plugin developers, customers and players

To illustrate the problem:
This is what @ForumNinja said about long standing misalignment issues
(By the way,ForumNinja seem to be all for GameSalad becoming open source)

@ForumNinja said:
we don't have the resources to fix them as of yet.

@blob said:
Yes @ForumNinja ! The fact that you guys don't have the resources should be a major argument towards making the code base open source.

As many of you know, this would be equivalent to getting free coders, saving resources, time and money.
Adaptation, flexibility and reevaluation of convictions is hard for many but it's the difference between keeping the lights on, barely coming up with the electric bill and installing solar panels on your roof.

(In GS case, this would be equivalent to free solar panels i might add).

WHEN YOU CAN'T RESOURCE, YOU OPEN-SOURCE

@RowdyPants said:.
While I could migrate to another awesome tool I much prefer to stick with GS as I'm close to mastering it. Current bugs are keeping me from releasing multiple projects and I won't wait forever.

If I were GS I'd be feeling the fire on my heels.
I'm on board with a decision to open source.

@PhilipCC said:
Somethings got to change soon because like many others I'm starting to look elsewhere.

You need more than one string to your bow...
...tie, that is.

@blob said:
Yes! education market is not enough..
However open source would also mean one more selling point for the education
market.

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2 THE MORAL ISSUE

@Chunkypixels said:
Ive argued that GS should consider becoming open source in the past. With ever dwindling development resources, and now whats becoming a year between bug fix updates, it makes even more sense.... for all the reasons others have mentioned.

Above all though....I just think its the morally right thing to do too.

After 6+ years of kicking its own community in the teeth at every turn, do they really want to leave everyone in the lurch, if the company finally does go under? If they really can't manage to turn things around, then hand it over to the community before its too late, so theres at least a chance of surviving... and rescuing the GS name and legacy.

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3 OPEN SOURCE AND EDUCATION ARE ALSO SYNERGETIC

@Socks said:

I assume any extensions to the source code would be written in Lua (or something else that is then compiled / converted to Lua) ?

If that's the case then is there not also an argument that making GameSalad open source would mesh with their push towards the educational market,
This would broaden the age range GameSalad can be aimed at in the educational market,with GameSalad pupils could progress from basic logic and game construction to actual coding all without having to jump from one SDK to another.

@BigDave said:
I guess making it open Source and being able to see the code would also be a big educational benefit.

Seeing a rule / behaviour and understanding it is one but then they can see how this is translated into source code.

Would even be more of a bridge to learn coding and strengthen the promise of learn to code the easiest way.

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4 HOW DOES OPEN SOURCE WORK?

@Toque said:
Any examples of open source software that's successful?

@Socks said:
Firefox, WordPress, Linux, Blender, BitCoin, Audacity, GIMP, VLC, HandBrake . . . etc etc >(and hundreds more).

@blob said:
Joomla. Drupal. Wordpress, linux, Ubuntu, Bitcoin, Mysql, Apache, Prestashop
Some of these companies like WordPress are valued at more than US$1 billion

@AlchimiaStudios said:
I'd also like to add an example of an engine that's open sourced that allows community commits through github, and still makes money.

unreal-engine-4-12-released for example had 106 improvements submitted by the community that made it into the Main branch. They are essentially getting help for free on improving the engine. Pretty awesome for both parties imo.

@scottharrrules43 said:
I have been making plugins for corona sdk. I have been able to implement replay kit, voice to text, pebble watch, google drive, 1Password, music streaming, firebase, and yelp. They just launched there store and have made quite a bit of money . Hopefully I can bring these plugins to gamesalad one day.

@Toque said:
Who tests it?

@blob said:
GS would police it, Appstore style, to keep mayhem and quality under control and we user would rate plugins.

@KevinCross said:
Where do I vote for open source?

I'm guessing that this would bring some of the new features that people have created to the main program install once GS have vetted it, instead of needing a zillion plug-ins to do the basic stuff that's still lacking from GS at the moment.

Would this mean that the subscriptions disappear completely or could it be set up in a way that the subscriptions would still be needed and people can't bypass it at all? I'm happy to pay for the subscriptions by the way. Just don't understand how GS can make money if the subscriptions go if it became open source. I know there are a lot of successful open source projects but they would have all taken time, money and resource to get where they are now. And to lose that money from subscriptions probably wouldn't be a good start for them.

@Socks said:
I guess GS would take a slice of the revenue (?) with the rest going to the plugin's maker.

@blob said:
Yes and if GS is afraid to jump in the open source game all in. They could first feel the water with an hybrid system:

Open Source software companies sometime keep some of the code base private and charge a premium for full functionality.
In GS case, it would be the compiler/publishing tool.
We would still have to pay for a membership to use it.
Don’t we all rather pay what we are paying for GS now and get GS team + a potentially unlimited army of coders?! lIke @scottharrrules43
GS echo system would be very attractive to coders since its user base is mainly code handicapped and therefore would be very dependent on plugins
GS would have nothing to lose from adopting such hybrid system.

Additional income could be generated thru:

1 creating special plugins
2 Of course, getting percentages on user created plugins
3 customization of code for bigger clients and projects
4 additional customer support.

Then there would come a time when the benefit of a zero cost entry point, based on plugins revenue would outweigh the premium GS charges its users.

@strag said:
Love this idea!

As @blob said; It wouldn't mean having to be completely open source if GameSalad wanted to protect their current business model. If were like 3DS Max where plugins can be created outside of the main package and integrated then it could be a total win/win.

Plugin creators could earn dosh, GameSalad takes a slice (more dosh), less need to hire more coders (savings of dosh).

I would pay tomorrow (thousands!) for a plugin that could take screenshots and post on social media.

@Socks said:
Same here, I genuinely would pay a lot of money for certain features.

@Toque said:
I would gladly spend $$ on special plug ins........
I would pay large sums for a simple search for actor function so I don't have to scroll through hundreds of actors.

@blob said:
A starving community + an underdeveloped software is a recipe for miracles when it comes to plugin sales.

@Socks said:
. . and the product would become more attractive to potential users given the range of additional available add-ons . . . so in theory more sales/users/subscriptions.

RossmanBrothersGames

@blob said:
@bdusing @ForumNinja @adent42 @CodeWizard ...@everyone

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2 THE MORAL ISSUE

@Chunkypixels said:
Ive argued that GS should consider becoming open source in the past. With ever dwindling development resources, and now whats becoming a year between bug fix updates, it makes even more sense.... for all the reasons others have mentioned.

Above all though....I just think its the morally right thing to do too.

After 6+ years of kicking its own community in the teeth at every turn, do they really want to leave everyone in the lurch, if the company finally does go under? If they really can't manage to turn things around, then hand it over to the community before its too late, so theres at least a chance of surviving... and rescuing the GS name and legacy.

At first glance I may have thought that calling it a Moral Issue was a bit strong, but I actually really agree with this.

It is scary hearing @ForumNinja say "we don't have the resources" to fix a known problem that has been around for a while that is something as simple as the rotation of the loading screen. While a simple problem, this has massive implications on how our apps come across. It also shouldn't be happening in a development system that we are paying for.

The reason I call this a Moral Issue is that the changes in Gamesalad are still very recent. I started working on our current project (a project that has a lot invested into it) AND paid for another year of GS pro to do it, back when Gamesalad said it was still striving to be a professional product. Then comes waves of employee layoffs that we find out about from other sources, and at first get a comment of "we are shifting our strategy" all the while getting comment like "don't worry we are still going to take care of our developers" So I just keep working on my project trusting gamesalad.

Gamesalad knows that many developers are investing a lot of time into their projects, and a game isn't finished when it is released, you still need a tool to do updates and make sure it runs with the current OS and everything. The moral thing to do the moment you have an idea that we might not be able to provide this platform to our paying customers is to either say so right away, or make a shift that makes that still possible, open source could be the "right thing to do" not from a business stand point, but to treat your customer right stand point.

If they don't have the resources to fix something small, what if Apple releases an iOS update that breaks Gamesalad games, do we wait months for our games to actually work?

I have really enjoyed Gamesalad and believe I and many others on the forums are doing pretty cool things with it. I really believe that Gamesalad meant it when they said "don't worry we are going to take care of you guys" when they made the shift to education. But maybe they are discovering they can't. Who knows, maybe they got plans and I am wrong. I mean all the features and stuff still works (except for the loading screen which is kinda a big one), and they updated to the newest chart boost sdk, this is all still future fears. But there is definitely reason to fear when there is little communication, few updates, and things like "we don't have the resources to fix the loading screen."

Socks

The listed advantages sound great, but I don't really know enough about open source to make any kind of informed judgment, so basically at this stage it's a case of 'look-at-all the-great-stuff-we-can-get' sounding attractive, but of course I don't actually know the downsides (if any) to open source, or even if open source is technically possible with GameSalad, or any of the business concerns with making your product open source, but if the question is would I be willing to pay for features in the form of individual plugins or extensions, then I certainly would.

@RossmanBrothersGames said:
It is scary hearing @ForumNinja say "we don't have the resources" to fix a known problem that has been around for a while that is something as simple as the rotation of the loading screen.

I agree, it's scary, others have said (in private email/PM) similar things, that they find it "a bit distressing", that they find it "worrying" and so on. Terrible PR I would have gone with something like "we're aware of the issue and it's on our list to be addressed at some point" . . .

@RossmanBrothersGames said:
But there is definitely reason to fear when there is little communication, few updates, and things like "we don't have the resources to fix the loading screen."

I'm not sure if the poor communication is the direct cause, but the overall lack of community engagement from GameSalad seems to be slowly killing off the forum, maybe I'm imagining it, but it does seem to be slowly dying off.

Two.E

An important Obstacle is the marketplace. A solid Marketplace. Currently we have no template market place cause GS didn't have resources to build their own. Third party sites seem great but look what happened to GShelper and DBA.

There needs to be some resources dedicated to the marketplace, otherwise the revenue benefits just don't exist for GS. I just don't think that would be possible.

KevinCross

I honestly think that this could well be the first open source program where I would look behind the scenes and learn from while tinkering. No other open source program has ever really sparked that interest.

I don't think I'd ever be creating plugins and earning mega bucks from it (haven't even put a template up for sale) but if I could do something as simple as sorting attributes inside GS I'd be pretty chuffed. There's probably a ton of other things I could look at and try.

The prospect truly excites me but we all know what's going to happen, staff are going to disappear without a trace, months of silence, and then they'll have a team restructure, write a post on their new goals and promises, change pricing, fail to meet a lot of the promises, staff will disappear without a trace, months of silence, team restructure, new pricing and promises, and rinse and repeat.

I hope open source sees the light of day though!

I'm also happy to pay any form of subscription/payment to GameSalad while it's open source.

Socks

@Two.E said:
An important Obstacle is the marketplace. A solid Marketplace. Currently we have no template market place cause GS didn't have resources to build their own. Third party sites seem great but look what happened to GShelper and DBA.

There needs to be some resources dedicated to the marketplace, otherwise the revenue benefits just don't exist for GS. I just don't think that would be possible.

Agreed, there would have to be a solid reliable outlet for this stuff.

AlchimiaStudios

I vote yes, but I understand there is a lot of work to figure out how to best manage such a drastic change, and that there is more then one approach to this. But I think the pros outweigh the cons.

ForumNinja

@RossmanBrothersGames said:
It is scary hearing @ForumNinja say "we don't have the resources" to fix a known problem that has been around for a while that is something as simple as the rotation of the loading screen. While a simple problem, this has massive implications on how our apps come across. It also shouldn't be happening in a development system that we are paying for.

I can see how that phrasing can be alarming, I apologize! It wasn't meant to mean that we don't have the means to fix the issue, just that our coding resources are being spent elsewhere, so they don't have the time to fix it.

While the problem may seem simple on paper (just tell the loading screen not to rotate, boom, bug fixed) it's not usually the case. When this issue first surfaced I brought it to George and he spent some time looking into it and found that it wouldn't be a easy / straightforward thing to resolve, so he didn't spend more time on it.

As for open sourcing, I'm personally in favor. I mentioned the idea to the team and haven't received positive feedback so far, but I'll keep probing more to see if it'd be possible to have some limited form implemented, or if we could open source to just a specific subset of people.

KevinCross

@ForumNinja said:
... or if we could open source to just a specific subset of people.

How would those people be selected do you think? Would they have to request to be on the list? Would it be based on users you think would have the experience and can prove they know what they're doing?

I wouldn't have the experience at first and probably wouldn't get very far with it but I'd certainly like to give it a go. But it only being available to a subset of people kind of suggests that people like wouldn't be in that subset >.<

I know you're only talking hypothetically.

ForumNinja

@KevinCross It is hypothetical yes, but if we were to go that route I'd expect we'd have a process for people to request access, and we'd invite specific people or groups we think are capable and that would be interested.

We can cross the bridge of how to handle people who want access for learning purposes if we get to that point, but I don't see any reason to prevent people with a desire to learn / motivation from being included

Two.E

Well, if the community was 100% on board with the idea, then maybe we would be seeing a larger pro-active response form GS. But guess they are looking after the 3% of members. Good to see

RossmanBrothersGames

@ForumNinja said:

I can see how that phrasing can be alarming, I apologize! It wasn't meant to mean that we don't have the means to fix the issue, just that our coding resources are being spent elsewhere, so they don't have the time to fix it.

While the problem may seem simple on paper (just tell the loading screen not to rotate, boom, bug fixed) it's not usually the case. When this issue first surfaced I brought it to George and he spent some time looking into it and found that it wouldn't be a easy / straightforward thing to resolve, so he didn't spend more time on it.

Thanks @ForumNinja and I also know that my fears expressed were just out of speculation.
Also is @GeorgeGS back and working with the team in some capacity? If so that is really encouraging!

blob

@Two.E said:
An important Obstacle is the marketplace. A solid Marketplace. Currently we have no template market place cause GS didn't have resources to build their own.

There needs to be some resources dedicated to the marketplace, otherwise the revenue benefits just don't exist for GS. I just don't think that would be possible.

Building a website to sell downloadable code chunks, which is essentially what a market place is, requires resources but anything short of closing shop requires resources.
The issues is, how much resources?
A market place is just an ecommerce website...There are millions of ecommerce website templates they can use, I'm sure many specific market place template would fit their need for less than $100 including backend .

example of a market place template:

https://themeforest.net/item/marketify-digital-marketplace-wordpress-theme/6570786?clickthrough_id=814102331&redirect_back=true&ref=athemez

@Socks said:
there would have to be a solid reliable outlet for this stuff.

see example link above or description here

http://athemes.com/collections/best-marketplace-wordpress-themes/

@ForumNinja said:
As for open sourcing, I'm personally in favor. I mentioned the idea to the team and haven't received positive feedback so far, but I'll keep probing more to see if it'd be possible to have some limited form implemented, or if we could open source to just a specific subset of people.

Do they understand that creating the front end and backend for the market place is essentially, buying a template?
We are all happy to keep paying subscriptions while open source.
With all the "codeless engine" growing competition, this would be a unique angle to make GS stand out. and an additional source of revenue.
There are many ways to go open source, as @AlchimiaStudios mentioned: community commits through github like unreal engine is also very interesting.
To me it's not a matter of yes or no, it's a matter of how.
What are their arguments against opening the software this way? ...IF i may ask...
Limited implementation is not bad but it is also = to fewer plugins, therefore slower software growth and revenue.

@Two.E said:
Well, if the community was 100% on board with the idea, then maybe we would be seeing a larger pro-active response form GS. But guess they are looking after the 3% of members. Good to see

To have a community 100% on board, you need a community 100% aware.
Many don't know what's going on, many don't read the forum, many are gone already, many don't care or don;t understand what open source is and how it could affect GS' future...

scottharrrules43

Let me throw in my two cents. The problem with open sourcing gamesalad is that gamesalad is fat. Coronas is only 1.4 mb per plaform. It is really slim and light. If gamesalad were open sourced it would probably not be that pretty. Gamesalad really need to boil, modularize, and clean up there code. Then allow user to make plugins in xcode or Android studio

blob

@scottharrrules43 said:
If gamesalad were open sourced it would probably not be that pretty. Gamesalad really >need to boil, modularize, and clean up there code. Then allow user to make plugins in >xcode or Android studio

Agreed, they better throw their limited resources into it then.
This would yield more results in the long run in terms of features added by the community than focusing on 1 update a year, implementing 3 years old basic features themselves.

RedRobo

I also think maybe fully open source may be a bridge too far but some kind of plugin support would be a massive boost for everyone.

blob

@strag said:
I also think maybe fully open source may be a bridge too far but some kind of plugin support would be a massive boost for everyone.

Yes , they would have to, definitely keep the subscription format.
then the real question is to choose between :

1 creating a market place for all to sell plugins.
2 community submitted improvements via github which would, then, be chosen to be added by the GS team.
3 both

The easiest way to get the ball rolling could be with option 2, (community submitted improvements).
Then to graduate to a full fledge market place once GS is growing again.
Hopefully @ForumNinja can talk some sense into his team, it's not a black and white, yes or no, decision, there are many ways to go about it.

PhilipCC

This concept being put forward again, this time in an organised and consultative way, has invigorated the Forum and generated a great deal of enthusiasm in two days!

Things were in the Doldrums once more with the feeling GameSalad was drifting into oblivion.

It is very hard to be creative, inspired, optimistic and productive as a game developer in an atmosphere of scant communication and uncertainty.

@ForumNinja This thread should demonstrate to the management just how passionate and loyal to GameSalad are the members voting here.

This also seems to me to be one last chance to all move forward together.

@blob I commend you in taking the initiative to gather the details above!

Two.E

Correct me if I am wrong:

But isn't there like another more power engine that was being developed? Why not keep GS the way it is and open source that engine. From my understanding, GS itself is very messy. Things may break easy.
No loss to the GS revenue stream, and if it doesn't work out then we continue GS the way it is. It all depends if it is legally CodeWizards, or part of GS property.

Socks

I> @Two.E said:

Correct me if I am wrong:

But isn't there like another more power engine that was being developed?

Graphene.

AlchimiaStudios

@Two.E said:
Correct me if I am wrong:

But isn't there like another more power engine that was being developed? Why not keep GS the way it is and open source that engine. From my understanding, GS itself is very messy. Things may break easy.
No loss to the GS revenue stream, and if it doesn't work out then we continue GS the way it is. It all depends if it is legally CodeWizards, or part of GS property.

@Socks said:
I> @Two.E said:

Correct me if I am wrong:

But isn't there like another more power engine that was being developed?

Graphene.

I think that engine belongs to Codewizard, and he's using to make his project that he left GS to develop while working contract.

BigDave

i mostly would like to have the option to partner up with advertisers and promoters such as appgratis. Having the option to add a third party sdk integration would be big.

But I would also install plenty of plugins made by socks

blob

@PhilipCC said:
@blob I commend you in taking the initiative to gather the details above!

Thanks

@PhilipCC said:
This also seems to me to be one last chance to all move forward together.

I think many of us feel the same way , I certainly do, that why it's worth taking the initiative.

freneticz

@BigDave said:
i mostly would like to have the option to partner up with advertisers and promoters such as appgratis. Having the option to add a third party sdk integration would be big.

But I would also install plenty of plugins made by socks

Yes sdk is a big deal.....

blob

Keep voting if you haven't, it does not hurt to bring awareness.

Valan

The programming environment concept is just how I want to program. I do not want to lose that.
My wish is to be able to use the full feature set of my phone.

I see that the only way that wish becomes reality is for an open sourced GameSalad.

(Webkit and Mac Os(Darwin?) are also open sourced.)

blob

6 votes to 50!

blob

With @ForumNinja announcing new funding, this seems even more feasible, and some kind of intelligent hybrid open sourcing could really become a reality!

Even IF they implement a 5th of what we are talking about here this would be ground breaking in terms of capacity and growth speed.

It starts with awareness!

smurfted

The people have spoken...

blob

@smurfted said:
The people have spoken...

The king does not listen or learn from history.