GS Mysterious long lived beta. This explination makes me go.. hmmmmmmmm?

CaptFinn

IBM invented the “beta” designation for software in the 1950s. IBM was very clear about what “beta” meant.
“Alpha” was used by IBM to refer to software that had not been announced; “beta” was for software that had been announced, but not shipped.

A “beta test” referred to the release of software to a few selected customers to find out if the software was ready for sale.
Nowadays, the “beta” label has come to mean whatever companies want it to mean.

There is no independent review board or legal criteria (although it can be used for legal protection).
Normally, companies make the decision based on whether they feel they need to lower expectations and shield themselves from criticism on the one hand, or promote healthy sales on the other.

quantumsheep

I have zero interest in whether it's beta or not to be honest.

I really am not trying to be rude, but I'm curious as to why it means so much to you!

QS =D

TouchiMedia

How about you mind your own business and let the Developers/owners behind Gamesalad dictate when they think it's not in Beta?

They are constantly adding features and other things to it, which will always create bugs. I don't see the big deal honestly.

CaptFinn

Im personally trying to understand how this tomato is ready for picking but this tomato is not. And in all my research. the only tangible and logical reason is legal ramifications. Thats all. Im not whining. Just curious.

Braydon_SFX

Whether GameSalad is in beta or not I still get to use it to publish games and make money. It's not like GameSalad is unusable because it's in Beta...Using GameSalad has become my job and I'm making enough money with it. I'm satisfied with that and glad I found the engine.

TouchiMedia

Im personally trying to understand how this tomato is ready for picking but this tomato is not. And in all my research. the only tangible and logical reason is legal ramifications. Thats all. Im not whining. Just curious.

Then why'd you buy it, you can test it without purchasing... If you really think 'this tomato is not ready for picking'

It just sounds like you're trying to surround Gamesalad with a negative connotation for whatever reason.

CaptFinn

Oh I totally agree with you 100%. It is a great product. And there are alot of its users. Pro Paying users as well who are making money and a nice living off of it. Sounds to me like the tires have been kicked and the windows work. And IM sure there will more features added to this model car soon. So lets get them on the lots for sale. oh wait... they are.

Adobe has products that people are using to make money and great careers off of said products. They dont consider themselves beta.

So I still ask myself. why is this tomato ready for a salad. But its twin is not.

CaptFinn

Im personally trying to understand how this tomato is ready for picking but this tomato is not. And in all my research. the only tangible and logical reason is legal ramifications. Thats all. Im not whining. Just curious.

Then why'd you buy it, you can test it without purchasing... If you really think 'this tomato is not ready for picking'

It just sounds like you're trying to surround Gamesalad with a negative connotation for whatever reason.

No Not at all. I think its a awesome tool. I think its been a awesome tool. I also know " like all other softwares" that the people behind the scenes will continue to improve this tool. And add these new features and release version with previous bugs fixed. With in new version releases. Just like Adobe, Microsoft, Apple, Techsmith, Indigorose, Sony,Samsung, Android, etc etc etc etc etc. do. But at some point. These other software builders stopped refering to themselves as beta. Therefore. Every since this tool was able to make a app and the app was approved and the app was downloaded. Then this tool did what it said it would. And from that moment would strive to make itself better. So why consider yourself beta?

CaptFinn

gmail was a free service. With no purchasable features. Which there we start to fall a lil deeper in to why this may still be considered beta.

User..HEY!!!!!!! WTF!!!!!!!!! I pay to make a living here using this service.

GS.......crickets........more crickets............ Ummmm. We told you we are in beta. DUHHHHHH

GS.....wipes sweat from forehead........ whewwww I knew keeping this in beta would save us a ass chewing of some sort.

TouchiMedia

Ok so what's the issue?

I view Beta as 'use at your own risk' .. whether that's being paying or not. It's your choice to buy it, and they even offer a free version.

They know with everything that they need to add, it'll cause bugs. It's almost impossible to add a laundry list of stuff without encountering an assortment of bugs.

I still don't understand why this makes you go hmmm.. Beta is a work in progress of sorts, as this is.. so why would they not call it a beta?

CaptFinn

So is adobe and all other software companies. A work in progress. They all strive to add new features and fix bugs that come with new features. But yet they don't use that as a excuse to call them selves beta.

jonmulcahy

to put it bluntly, why do you care so much? does the beta title really matter?

CaptFinn

I'm only curious. And it's a simple innocent question. But all this coming to GSs defense is starting to make me wonder. What's wrong with a good healthy question? It's a simple honest innocent question. But yet to receive a logical simple honest answer. Other than. " because they can" or. " why do you want to know so bad". And any other answers leave huge holes are so illogical.

tatiang

gmail was a free service. With no purchasable features. Which there we start to fall a lil deeper in to why this may still be considered beta.

User..HEY!!!!!!! WTF!!!!!!!!! I pay to make a living here using this service.

GS.......crickets........more crickets............ Ummmm. We told you we are in beta. DUHHHHHH

GS.....wipes sweat from forehead........ whewwww I knew keeping this in beta would save us a ass chewing of some sort.

Your original question may have been innocent but the quote above shows that you believe GameSalad doesn't care about how they treat their customers as long as they retain the title of "beta" for their software. That's presumptuous.

At the end of the day, you either choose to use (freely or as a paid member) GameSalad or not. You knew it was beta when you joined and I think it's fine to question why it is still in beta.

TouchiMedia

You're being illogical. You're saying there's a universal acceptance of what is beta and what is not.

Yes, beta is a work in progress. That is what Gamesalad is, is it not?

One of the most classic PC Game called Counterstrike was in alpha/beta for years even when most would accept it as being a final version.

Ultimately it's up for the developers/owners to declare when they feel comfortable releasing it as non-beta. For Adobe - it was sooner rather then later. For Counterstrike and Gmail - it was later rather then sooner.

That's all there is to it.

CaptFinn

I never agreed that the phrase. " a work in progess" was the definition of beta. All software beta and non beta alike are always a work in progress. Take all the possible reasons that make a software still beta. Now take all the reasons why a software would not be considered beta. Now compare the 2. Consider each one a Boolean. Yes or no. What is Game salad doing in Regards to development. That other non beta related software companies are not? What is game salad doing that other are not. That allows them to logically define their product as beta. Don't come at me with bugs and new features. Since you guys want to defend this so bad. Before you give a answer. Ask your self if Adobe isn't already doing the same. Bugs? Adobe fixes bugs. Features? New features comes with new updates or version releases. New feature bugs get fixed very fast if possible and a new update for current versions gets released right away. So everything you come at me with. Adobe does as well. Has been always will. And hasn't been beta for a long long time.

quantumsheep

Ok, reading through your answers, you fail to answer my healthy, simple, innocent question of 'why do you want to know so bad?' other than with 'I'm curious'.

Which doesn't seem legit, if you'll forgive me for saying, as you've brought it up in at least two threads just today as far as I can tell, and have brought it up before too.

This seems to be a real thorn in your side and I can only guess as to why as most people don't really fret about it to the same degree you seem to.

Reading between the lines of your answers, I think what you're looking for is 'accountability'.

Now that's fair and good. We'd all like to know that paying for Pro, for example, will guarantee us a certain level of new features or optimisation or improvements. We'd all like that I'm sure.

Because otherwise we are left with what you call an 'excuse' or a 'get out of jail free' card. Which you don't like. I can tell you don't like it because you are, through the words you use, suggesting that being in 'beta' is bad - these are not positive words.

I get that, and I can certainly understand where you're coming from.

But that's how it is right now. The software is in beta. Everyone accepts that except perhaps yourself and maybe a couple of others.

Why do we accept it?

Because it's really not important to us. I understand it's important to you, but it's not to most people.

As to other software coming out of Beta - well, if GS was made by Adobe, you'd have a fair comparison. Why is Adobe's other software out of Beta but not GS?

GS is not made by Adobe though, so that line of though seems irrelevant! How one company does things does not necessarily translate into how another does, even in a related field.

Finally, I'd like to point out a growing trend in game development. Quite a few games are starting to have paid beta periods.

The understanding is that you as a consumer get the game early (while in Beta) and pay for the privilege. You're effectively paying early to get the first go on something with the understanding that it will have bug and faults and missing features and that it will be improved upon with time.

Some companies are even doing paid *alphas*!

Some of these games have a roadmap to release. Others, because of feedback from the beta, stay in beta longer than expected to fix thing.

But again, this is an unrelated example as GS is its own company.

So, in closing, I hope your curiosity will abate to a level you're more comfortable with!

QS =D


EDIT: An example of a game in beta (for over 2 years now) that you can pay for: https://kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php

TouchiMedia

@FinnBogg Sounds like you're over thinking the whole concept.

@QuantumSheep Preach it brotha!

Armelline

Beta no longer has the same meaning. I find it a little annoying, but what it really comes down to is companies saying "Hey! We've made this cool thing and although we're not completely happy with it, it's in good enough shape for you to play with and, if you want, buy!"

As long as the product is functioning, and as long as it's usable and useful, I see no reason not to sell it - as long as the user gets a very clear idea of exactly what they're getting. The way I look at it with GameSalad is that EVERYONE gets the FREE beta creator/viewer and publishing. They can also pay to add more features. GameSalad might even argue that while the creator/viewer is in beta, the pro features are not.

I don't see it as in the same ballpark as the trend many games today have towards "Early Access". That's just selling an incomplete product.

GameSalad offer a free product that is stable but not bug free, and offer paid extras for it.

Seem fair to me.

Though I *do* get annoyed by how often the beta tag is stuck on things these days.

CaptFinn

Nope. My level of curiosity only increases. When a simple question becomes so offensive that the only responses I get are very illogical and deviate from a simple
Answer. In regards to beta and it's use through out the years. You can only define it as it changes. Hence my first posting here. But since all I have is previous software developers products and how they transitioned from beta to non beta. And the things that changes because of the new designation. I have to use those when I'm looking at GS. And when I look at game salad and compare it's current level of use and abilities and awards presented and it's user base being able to make money of its current level of development. I simple was wondering why are we still calling it beta? It's that simple. And the closest answer I've gotten with the most logic behind it is. GS isn't currently satisfied with its service and is still trying to reach a certain level of perfection. And my response to that is. Ok. What will it take to feel that level of perfection. Especially if you are coming up with 15 new features in the works when 3 of the last 15 still has bugs to be worked on. So. If there was a list to check off before you go out of beta. What would this list be?

Armelline

I'd agree that GameSalad need to branch off a "final" version of their software and release a 1.0 release, but as soon as that happens it effectively goes back into a public beta of 1.1. So at the end of the day, all software with nightly builds is going to be "beta" software. You have the choice of regular updates trying new things, or long windows between releases.

GameSalad is a type of application that greatly benefits from regular updates even if they're just just testing features out. So it's an environment where I feel the beta tag is justifiable. I didn't feel gmail needed to spend so long in beta though.

TouchiMedia

Lets just say when most of the Roadmap is final, and the Developers/Owner is happy with it.

And don't you know, curiosity killed the cat, stop being so nosey!

/thread

quantumsheep

Nope. My level of curiosity only increases. When a simple question becomes so offensive that the only responses I get are very illogical and deviate from a simple answer

Sorry. My level of interest in this subject only decreases further when any response made suggests that we've been offended by your question.

I haven't been offended by it for the record. I just do not agree with your view on this.

I've nothing more to add that you won't find illogical or complicated, so I'll leave it here!

Have fun!

QS =D

CaptFinn

Roadmap huh. Well if that's not biggest loophole
I've ever seen to always stay in beta. With every 1
Thing checked off that roadmap. 15 things are added. So technically. That isn't a list of " what takes us out of
Beta"

Nice try though.

jonmulcahy

it's a description. if anything they are closer to alpha than full release since the product is not feature complete.

CaptFinn

That wasn't directed at you QS. But for as long as I have been curious about this. Most of what I get seems like they are offended that I even dare question GS.

CaptFinn

Omg now your saying they are closer to alpha than a publicly used software. That has proven it does what it says it does and continues to strive to improve itself. It's so good many apps created by it have own awards. They are confident enough to charge for extra features. And you want to say they are more alpha than beta? Face palm. Major omg face palm.

TouchiMedia

Your 'curious questions' have negative implications like for whatever reason you think it's wrong to stay in beta...People keep answering you but you keep finding reasons to say that it's not enough for you.

I'm stop contributing to this thread cause it's resembling trolling

CaptFinn

Well I'm not trolling. And I've not seen anything close to answering the premise of my question. Lete see if I can word it in a way that stop people from find ways to avert the premise. Next month if GS posted a sticky advertising that GS creator version 1.0 has finally been released. What would have changed from GS current status today to where we are now V 1.0. What changed? What " things to do" have happened? What was lacking and now no longer lacks? What did it finally take to call it V 1.0? Is there a goal that takes them out of beta? Or are they planning to stay in beta forever?

Now you can add your 2 cents that helps answer the premise of those questions. Or you can respond in a way that does everything but.

jonmulcahy

Omg now your saying they are closer to alpha than a publicly used software. That has proven it does what it says it does and continues to strive to improve itself. It's so good many apps created by it have own awards. They are confident enough to charge for extra features. And you want to say they are more alpha than beta? Face palm. Major omg face palm.

the accepted definition is as follows (from IBM as you mentioned above):

alpha:
Alpha software can be unstable and could cause crashes or data loss. (hrmmmm)
The alpha phase usually ends with a feature freeze, indicating that no more features will be added to the software. At this time, the software is said to be feature complete.

beta:
Beta is the software development phase following alpha. It generally begins when the software is feature complete. Software in the beta phase will generally have many more bugs in it than completed software, as well as speed/performance issues and may still cause crashes or data loss.

release candidate
A release candidate (RC) is a beta version with potential to be a final product, which is ready to release unless significant bugs emerge. In this stage of product stabilization, all product features have been designed, coded and tested through one or more beta cycles with no known showstopper-class bug

what do you think they are closest to?

CaptFinn

RC. But with them adding more features to the list of things to add than they put out that's already on the things to add list. In this case they will always be a RC beta.