"WTF rant" - or "just having a really bad day..."

SpriteAttack

I have not been on this forum for long, I don't even own a mac to run gamesalad nor do I have the desire to code game - I just love making games and art for games... I do enjoy helping others who share a similar passion... Some say I just show off, other think I do it for the money to promote myself or just enjoy tearing other artists work apart... It's true do it for fun and because I think I could help... but I don't think this is healthy anymore... not for me at least... I am done helping out, I am done commenting and I am done caring young kids with the attitude of spoiled brats who think that because they are 'just 12 years old' they get away with everything.

I have done this job twice as long as these little punks roamed this planet and I worked hard to get to the level of skill, experience and knowledge... but this forum has no respect, no morale and not values for the work of others. We all get inspired by things and all try to reach the heights set by great artists, game-designers or coders - but there is a difference between taking inspiration from something or someone and plain stealing. On this forum a lot of people don't care about this fine line. It's more important to some to make a quick buck, use something for their own advantage or run others down for their own gain.

We have sous-chefs with their own agendas, their own games and their own ideas of who can do what and get away with it. It's become ridiculous. Pixeled junk gets praised when there is but a few scattered pixels to be seen, some artists get away with posting free works in new threads while others are send to the 'now sticky' general thread. There is too much bitching and not enough helping around and I am just fed up with this childish behavior.

...and when a sous-chef I just helped for his personal project questions my ethics on a day where I already had my hand taken when I gave a little finger and got abused for charging too much for my artwork because I am not going with the prices of some young student who is trying to make his mark and charge for the experience and professionalism that I have compiled over the years I just lose it.

Sparkyidr

Hey man. I'm not going to comment about the forums stuff...but the other things......It's unfortunately a sign of the times.
I'm going to assume me and you are around the same age (give or take). I am a full time musician/studio engineer...and I come up against exactly the same thing on a daily basis.

I was having this very discussion last week :
There is now a generation of people....kids if you will....who just expect everything to be free....and the reason for that, is because it kind of IS free.

The advent of the interwebs, and being able to grab anything you can think of, for nothing, has made them like this.

Keep yer chin up. there are always people who appreciate what experience can bring to a job. It might not be as many as there once was...but they are there.

lollol

SpriteAttack, I don't comment much because of the childish carry on that happens here,but only to help people if I can. I have seen some very strange things on this forum, in fact this is the strangest forum I have ever been on. There is so many odd rules like not advertising your services,your designs ect. Great to have a marketplace but the sad part is how many games will have the same art work. sad

Some sous-chef's here act very unprofessional and I agree with you, they do what ever they like,not all I must add.

I think Gamesalad need to really look over some of the silly rules here and make it like a normal forum.

SpriteAttack do you have a website? oh I forgot you not allowed post it. Can you pm me your details if you get time.

mynameisace

@lollol - The advertisement rules are now pretty straight forward to follow and have cleaned the forum up from the 'marketplace' thread that we used to have that was full of shovel-ware.

When the ad rules are less strict, people take advantage of the grey area.

Ace

jonmulcahy

Never though you would be the originator of this post. I have stated for a long time that when GS went free the community suffered, there are way too many people trying to make a quick buck by selling rehashed templates, publishing others templates, or just putting out shovel ware. it's gotten better, but there are still a lot of immature people who think they deserve everything for a song.

As a sous chef I try and be as fair as possible. I've been accused of being too heavy handed and received my fair share of nasty pm's. . It's hard though, not every sous chef has the same ideas of enforcement, nor the same amount of time to devote to it.

I hope this is not the last we see of you, you've been a great addition to the community.

basil81

I certainly feel your pain man, but you shouldn't let this stuff get you down. Lot's of members here respect you highly, including myself, and I hope this won't affect your contributions to this forum. Just because 'some' people don't show appreciate, doesn't mean you should just pack it up, but then of course you're free to do whatever you want. I just wanted to chime in and say that I believe it would be a blow to the community if you stopped posting. All the best!

UtopianGames

GS is free because of all the money they make when people click on the adverts so there's method in the madness.

It all comes down to money...GS must be making more on advertising inside the free version games than they would charging a lower fee for a limited version...business is business.

Darren.

SpriteAttack

Whoa whoa whoa - @spriteattack, if this is in reference to the other work previously being discussed, it wasn't aimed at you. The comment, while admittedly meant as a (I hope) a lighthearted jab, was aimed at another member of the thread - not you or your work.

Sorry... the comment by another sous-chef was in a threat about a game I happened to work on and the was no smile or any sign that it was meant in a friendly way or just aimed at one member of the development team (which is not the point anyway). It's unprofessional to mix personal vendettas - for whatever reason or rumor or grudge - with the announcement of a game. The game might not be the greatest and best this forum has seen but that is a decent attempt at creating something worthwhile and showing that GameSalad is not just the playground of kids.

If that is the way this forum wants to be that's fine with me. Sous-chefs getting off on their power, kids showing off their inflated egos and rotten manners and GameSalad remaining a 'kids toy for playing game developer' is not my cup of tea though.

mynameisace

The game release thread aside, where is an example of sous-chefs 'getting off on their power'? We have set guidelines that we follow.

I agree with the majority of your post, most people here are along for a free-ride. I spend 5+ hours every single day helping people out on here, via Skype and email and half are really grateful, the other half I don't even get a thank you.

Ace

Fal01

I have also been shocked by the brazen attitude of some of the GS members who go around ripping off peoples work, taking inspiration is one thing but this is outright theft and in a community of creative people it 's the lowest of the low.

I also think that the GS hierarchy should take steps against people who do this and suspend their accounts until they have taken down the offending material.

Just my 2cents.

mynameisace

@Fal01 - This is in place at the moment, if someone steals work or gives away other people's templates it's worthy of a ban.

Ace

mynameisace

@saladstraightshooter - Agree with every word.

Ace

SpriteAttack

@saladstraightshooter - thanks for taking the time and effort, mate.

scitunes

@saladstraightshooter - well said.

@SpriteAttack - Maybe I should have said it before now, but I am always amazed and impressed by the way you coming swooping in like an art super hero to help people with art related problems when they haven't even asked for your help. Every time you do this you create the perfect piece of art for their need - it blows me away. Your tutorials are amazing and I'm sure that countless numbers of people have learned a lot from them.

Anyways, I feel that you are a great asset to this community. I hope you can let the little twerps and their twerpiness roll off your back!

-Best

Dan

RP

@SpriteAttack I'm going to say this. I think it is great that you have helped so many folks on the forums with tutorials, suggestions, examples, free-bees etc., BUT...why is it you feel compelled to take your time to make mock-ups on almost every art inquiry and post them for all to see, rather than dealing with the individual directly? That is just as bad as doing work on spec and not getting paid for it. You did this to yourself. When you give the pigeons a free meal, don't get mad when the pigeon flock gets out of control.

Don't take that too hard, just my 2 cents. Keep on trucking dude, your serve as role model for some of these "punks" that are learning to spread their artistic wings. Maybe time to change the pigeon feed distribution...after all, you know what comes afterwords.

simo103

@SpriteAttack ... I disagree with @RP .. this forum is for the most part the best I have seen and is often noted how helpful and welcoming it is. Take away your input and sharing ... other talented peoples input and sharing and what do we have left? I mean why would anyone help someone else? .. screw the pigeon metaphor .... some great birds pick up some food in between those pigeons and they may not make it otherwise. People like you helping me through showing others leads to me trying to help others with whatever talent I might have to share. Stealers/unappreciative moochers/fast buck copiers .. you may feel like you win when you do what you do ... but you soil the waters we all swim in and sooner or later you will realize that in fact you lost.

RP

@simo103, not sure if you have been following what has been going on, or that fact that SpriteAttack's works have been stollen, used without authorization or copied and tweaked (@SpriteAttack yeah I saw that "Epic Fail" that you caught red handed recently). I'm, not saying he should not do it, but change the method on how he does it/delivers it. You dig?

SpriteAttack gives a lot to the community and he gets very little in return compared to the amount of effort he invests. He deserves more. Don't you think?

Note that there are other graphic artists on the forum with as much or more experience as he, we have been down that track at some point or another, willingly assisting others pro bono and getting burned. Changing the strategy to prevent it does not mean ceasing his contributions.

simo103

@RP ... agree ... think I wrongly took what you were saying to suggest he not bother helping. We're on the same page.

RP

@simon103 Right on!

LeonardDeveloper

@spriteattack
I actually agree with you on EVERY Single point.. I'm so truly pissed of with all this crap that I'm finding it hard to stick around and help lately.. A while ago I made a game called "dotty" and hosted on media fire but left it an open link just to show someone who to a "touch follower" game that avoids falling objects from the sky, Then while browsing the app store a couple of weeks later... I found the damn thing!, I contacted straight away and asked for it to be removed.. I got the crap about being "ten" and always "dreaming" of making his first app,..When he did nothing just published a half completed help template!, Fortunately after a few emails from me he removed it from the app store..


Now that all my venting is done! I have to say that this forum is the BEST Forum I have ever been a member of or ever seen.... Its full of people willing to help unlike any other game development forum this forum is willing to HELP!! and it hurts me every time this community tries to help and they're "helping" is soiled by someone trying to make a "quick buck"

And to be honest It makes me VERY upset to hear that you're "pissed" off with helping, Because a long with some other people you are one of the people that contribute most to this community..


Now again, That said theirs nothing wrong with the community or the way its managed.. It's the people the community attracts...


and @saladstraightshooter I have to say the forum has gotten a way "safer" controlled environment since you Joined GameSalad and I say Kudo's to you for doing a brilliant job!, I think that needed to be said in a discussion like this..

Oh and the one point that I don't agree with is "Sous chef's going out of their power" I don't think I have seen an example of this... I generally don't get food poisoning form their contribution to the salad.... The only thing that bothers me is Closing threads without sending a PM or notifying the user why Which rarely happens in any case..


However from a marketers point of view we need some Middle Ground for advertising services or developer resources... Like every other Game development forum.....

Anyway,
Thats just my 2c..
Cheers,
J.Leonard

Philie

1% of all the kids here actually take GameSalad and game-making very, very seriously. I may only be 16 years old, but this is honestly the best thing ever, and I love it. I actually save my money up, and spend it on graphics, music, etc, rather then find the free way to do it, or the cheap way (using templates & just publishing it)

I feel your pain @SpriteAttack - thats how it works, you put so much work into something, and people think it doesn't matter, because its all about them, as long as their life is good! Don't let it get you down.

WTDeveloper

@LeonardDeveloper
I totally agree with you!!!
Everything is right what you said and Chris i hope you find the good in this forum again and get off these little Kids,which say that they are 12, but are 14 Year old..
And from my opinion it's greater to publish something you made and on what you can Be proud of than to publish templates..

@SpriteAttack
I Hope you get your love for this Great Forum again!!!

WTDeveloper

LeonardDeveloper

@wtdeveloper
That's the spirit

WTDeveloper

@LeonardDeveloper
Yes,that's the spirit

JustMe74

I rather like seeing how SpriteAttack improves people's art. The fact that he does it unsolicited is such a service to this community. Even if the person doesn't use what SpriteAttack created, it's a learning tool. I know that I've learned a lot from observing how he improves other peoples' art.

tatiang

@spriteattack I can't say I really understand everything you're commenting about, but I do hope you hang in there. I've benefitted from your wisdom and instruction. I consider myself "someone who can't draw" and yet I was able to create a character after reading through one of your tutorials. It may have taken me 30 minutes to do what you can do in 1 minute but that's okay with me.

As for the forums, I've seen much worse. As a moderator of other Internet forums, I've applied to help out here. If I am accepted I'm hoping I can address some of the issues you've mentioned. I'm also older and work as a teacher. I definitely see my students' mentality as "it's on the Internet, so I can take it and use it as I see fit." It's a challenge to teach them otherwise, but I do teach them otherwise. In my Game Design class for 3rd-8th graders, I specifically address the question of public domain, royalty-free, etc. I teach them to actually (gasp) read the fine print so that they know if artwork is for commercial use or only private use, and whether or not they have to give credit and/or ask permission, or pay for use.

I think most younger members of the community are just so used to being able to take, take, take, that they haven't really thought about the repercussions. And I don't think the blame for that is entirely theirs since many parents and teachers don't teach them about those things and often don't understand it well themselves (I have teachers asking me if they can burn a soundtrack to CD and give it to 100 students... to which I tell them, "yes, it's possible. And yes, it's illegal.").

But I can see how that gets very frustrating very quickly.

Anyway, I hope this discussion is helping more than hurting your cause.

jckmcgraw

@Philie

Thanks for standing up for the 1% of the teenage species

Jack McGraw

youngster9

I absolutely agree with @SpriteAttack ALTHOUGH I think that everyone here has made the stereotype that if you are working with a kid under the age of 18 you will get ripped off in some way in the end. I know there are some pretty retarded kids in the world who think they are the next big thing when really they are the next guy flipping burgers. But not all of us kids are that dumb. Some of us are not here for the money. I for one am using this as something on my college application once I am out of high school, I am not on the forums that often because I have to keep my 4.0 GPA.

Overall you all can't say all kids are scammers. Some of us are here for fun and education. To get into an awesome computer science program in college. If game development is for everyone, then no part of that everyone should be looked upon poorly.

Sorry if this insulted anyone.

tatiang

@youngster9 TRUE. And in fact, I'm working with a 15 year-old graphic designer who has great morals, great work ethic, etc. So you can't stereotype by age, but I do think that some of the perspective we have on what is "fair use" is generational.

EatingMyHat

@youngster9 I actually agree with you that not all kids are scammers, some of them are adults.

Some of the kids just don't care and think that they are very smart to trick the system, but some just don't know better - both are a problem.

My son is doing some Gamesalad development (I will not say playing with gamesalad because he might read it and get pissed off at me ), but he is not allowed to post to the forum or to publish to the app store (sorry). The reason is that he will make innocent mistakes that will get people angry at him. Still lots of fun creating game and doing Ad Hoc builds for him and his friends.

On the flip side, I'm sure that the parents of our Fall Fu Panda friends thinks their kids are geniuses for "creating" an iPhone game, without bothering to ask where he got his new found divine artistic skills...

--Third Party Links removed-Please utilize the signatures feature of the forum so users who wish to not see your signature may disable it. --thanks tenrdrmer

beefy_clyro

@SpriteAttack i get where you're coming from man but trust me, you're input to this community is very much noted and appreciated. I'd hate to see you leave!
I agree that the free model has enticed kids who think everything will be free and don't understand the true value of talent, these are the same kids that have expensive macs and iphones given to them at 10-12 years old .. They've only ever been given stuff and dont know the value of talent, work and time.
I'd say the trick is to learn when to pitch in with your help in examples and deal in terms of comission work with only serious developers.

I don't agree on some of your generalising, this forum is still very helpful in general, its gotten harder to maintain as there many new members and I got a vibe that you were saying everyone who develops with GameSalad was a bit like a child and not serious about what they do ... Which i strongly disagree with.

Anyway, I hope you reconsider as when it comes to art, you really nail it and your input is always spot on.

Cheers